MAT 17:27 "cause the tax collectors to sin"

stephendillard commented

2020-10-26 16:57:04 +00:00

Member

Here the ULB reads: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to sin". The Greek reads ἵνα δὲ μὴ σκανδαλίσωμεν αὐτούς (Lit., "but in order that we do not cause them to stumble").

BDAG, Louw and Nida, Mounce, and Thayer all regard σκανδαλίζω to be used in Matt. 17:27 in the sense of “offended”. Only one English translation on Biblehub (Weymouth New Testament) uses the word “sin” here. However, the question unanswered in the text is, "How would Jesus and his friends be causing the tax collectors to sin, presumably, by not paying the tax?" This seems to create more questions than it answers.

Further, the antecedent of αὐτούς is being supplied for context (even then, "the tax collectors" often has a different connotation in Matthew; even he called these men οἱ τὰ δίδραχμα λαμβάνοντες, "those taking/receiving the two drachma" rather than using ὁ τελωνης); I would suggest following the majority of lexicography here regarding σκανδαλίζω in this verse: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to be offended"

Here the ULB reads: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to **sin"**. The Greek reads ἵνα δὲ μὴ σκανδαλίσωμεν αὐτούς (Lit., "but in order that we do not cause them to stumble"). BDAG, Louw and Nida, Mounce, and Thayer all regard σκανδαλίζω to be used in Matt. 17:27 in the sense of **“offended”**. Only one English translation on Biblehub (Weymouth New Testament) uses the word “sin” here. However, the question unanswered in the text is, "How would Jesus and his friends be causing the tax collectors to sin, presumably, by not paying the tax?" This seems to create more questions than it answers. Further, the antecedent of αὐτούς is being supplied for context (even then, "the tax collectors" often has a different connotation in Matthew; even he called these men οἱ τὰ δίδραχμα λαμβάνοντες, "those taking/receiving the two drachma" rather than using ὁ τελωνης); I would suggest following the majority of lexicography here regarding σκανδαλίζω in this verse: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to be offended"

drewc commented

2020-10-26 19:20:51 +00:00

Owner

I agree.

drewc added the

Susan

label 2020-10-26 19:20:56 +00:00

SusanQuigley commented

2020-10-27 13:18:26 +00:00

Owner

@drewcurley
I agree that "cause ... to sin" is not right.

Would you want to keep the "stumble" metaphor? The ULB has it 27 times in the NT.
If we use "offend" would you like it to be active as it is in Greek?

@drewcurley I agree that "cause ... to sin" is not right. Would you want to keep the "stumble" metaphor? The ULB has it 27 times in the NT. If we use "offend" would you like it to be active as it is in Greek?

SusanQuigley added the

Drew

label 2020-10-27 13:18:34 +00:00

drewc commented

2020-10-27 13:27:57 +00:00

Owner

I like the idea of keeping stumbling and I would keep it active.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-10-27 15:21:33 +00:00

Owner

@drewcurley

I changed "to sin" to "to stumble"

TN has this, but I'm not sure it's right.
But so that we do not cause the tax collectors to stumble, go
"But we do not want to make the tax collectors angry. So, go."

A lot of versions have "offend" or "cause offense," and we tend to think of offending someone as making them angry. But I don't see how "stumble" would be a good metaphor for "become angry." In some passages "offend" seems to mean do something that harms a person in some way, such as causing them to sin or to lack faith. I wonder if Jesus was concerned that if he did not pay the tax, the collectors might think that he sinned and therefore could not be the Messiah. Causing them to stumble would mean causing them not to have faith.

What do you think of the ideas in this note below? Should we skip the "anger" idea? Can you see any ways of shortening it yet making it clear?

so that we do not cause the tax collectors to stumble
Here causing people to stumble is a metaphor for offending them. Possible meanings are 1) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors would be angry with him. Alternate translation: "so that we do not make the tax collectors angry" or 2) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors might think that he was a sinner and so could not be the Messiah. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors' faith to fail" or "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to reject me" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor)

@drewcurley I changed "to sin" to "to stumble" TN has this, but I'm not sure it's right. **But so that we do not cause the tax collectors to stumble, go** "But we do not want to make the tax collectors angry. So, go." A lot of versions have "offend" or "cause offense," and we tend to think of offending someone as making them angry. But I don't see how "stumble" would be a good metaphor for "become angry." In some passages "offend" seems to mean do something that harms a person in some way, such as causing them to sin or to lack faith. I wonder if Jesus was concerned that if he did not pay the tax, the collectors might think that he sinned and therefore could not be the Messiah. Causing them to stumble would mean causing them not to have faith. What do you think of the ideas in this note below? Should we skip the "anger" idea? Can you see any ways of shortening it yet making it clear? **so that we do not cause the tax collectors to stumble** Here causing people to stumble is a metaphor for offending them. Possible meanings are 1) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors would be angry with him. Alternate translation: "so that we do not make the tax collectors angry" or 2) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors might think that he was a sinner and so could not be the Messiah. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors' faith to fail" or "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to reject me" (See: [[rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor]])

drewc commented

2020-10-27 15:42:02 +00:00

Owner

I do not think angry is a good word choice. It is more the concept of scandalize than making angry. Other than that I like it.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-11-02 18:41:28 +00:00

Owner

@drewcurley

so that we do not cause the tax collectors to stumble
Here causing people to stumble is a metaphor for offending them. Possible meanings are 1) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors would be shocked. Alternate translation: "so that we do not shock the the tax collectors" or 2) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors might think that he was a sinner and so could not be the Messiah. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors' faith to fail" or "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to reject me" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor)

or

so that we do not cause the tax collectors to stumble
Here causing people to stumble is a metaphor for offending them. Possible meanings are 1) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors would think he had done something very wrong. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to think that we do something that is very bad" or 2) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors might think that he was a sinner and so could not be the Messiah. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors' faith to fail" or "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to reject me" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor)

or
Should I just delete the first possible meaning?

@drewcurley **so that we do not cause the tax collectors to stumble** Here causing people to stumble is a metaphor for offending them. Possible meanings are 1) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors would be shocked. Alternate translation: "so that we do not shock the the tax collectors" or 2) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors might think that he was a sinner and so could not be the Messiah. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors' faith to fail" or "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to reject me" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor) or **so that we do not cause the tax collectors to stumble** Here causing people to stumble is a metaphor for offending them. Possible meanings are 1) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors would think he had done something very wrong. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to think that we do something that is very bad" or 2) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors might think that he was a sinner and so could not be the Messiah. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors' faith to fail" or "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to reject me" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor) or Should I just delete the first possible meaning?

SusanQuigley removed the

Susan

label 2020-11-02 18:41:39 +00:00

drewc commented

2020-11-02 19:51:33 +00:00

Owner

I think the phrase "do not cause the tax collectors' faith to fail" is very problematic theologically. Other than that I am good with either.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-11-02 22:26:47 +00:00

Owner

I'll change the note to this.

so that we do not cause the tax collectors to stumble
Causing people to stumble is a metaphor for offending them. Possible meanings are 1) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors would think he had done something very wrong. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to think that we do something that is very bad" or 2) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors might think that he was a sinner and so could not be the Messiah. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to reject me" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor)

I'll change the note to this. **so that we do not cause the tax collectors to stumble** Causing people to stumble is a metaphor for offending them. Possible meanings are 1) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors would think he had done something very wrong. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to think that we do something that is very bad" or 2) Jesus was concerned that the tax collectors might think that he was a sinner and so could not be the Messiah. Alternate translation: "so that we do not cause the tax collectors to reject me" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor)

SusanQuigley closed this issue

2020-11-02 22:29:59 +00:00

drewc commented

2020-11-02 22:30:24 +00:00

Owner

Okay

MAT 17:27 "cause the tax collectors to sin" #809