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1CH 4:4 clans in the city of Gedor #797
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Reference: WycliffeAssociates/en_ulb#797
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Problem found by Stacy Shawiak and John Luton:
1 Chronicles 4:4. Peniel was the ancestor of the clans in the city of Gedor. Ezer was the originator of the clans in Hushah. These were descendants of Hur, the firstborn of Ephrathah and the originator of Bethlehem.
The mistake is that Gedor is the name of a person, Peniel’s son Gedor, not a city.
Here's what Bible Hub has from Strong's about Gedor.
Gedor: "wall," three cities in Isr., also a Benjamite
Original Word: גְדֹר
Part of Speech: proper name; proper name, of a location; proper name, of a location; proper name, masculine
Transliteration: Gedor
Phonetic Spelling: (ghed-ore')
Definition: "wall", three cities in Isr., also a Benjamite
Here's what Bible Hub has from Brown-Driver-Briggs
I wonder how we determine whether Gedor here refers to a city in Judah or a descendant of Judah. (1Ch 4 is about Judah's descendants.)
In 1 Cor 4:3 we called Etam a city.
English Standard Version:
3 These were the sons of Etam: Jezreel, Ishma, and Idbash; and the name of their sister was Hazzelelponi,
4 and Penuel fathered Gedor, and Ezer fathered Hushah. These were the sons of Hur, the firstborn of Ephrathah, the father of Bethlehem.
ULB:
\v 3 These were the ancestors of the clans in the city of Etam: Jezreel, Ishma, and Idbash. Their sister's name was Hazzelelponi.
\v 4 Peniel was the ancestor of the clans in the city of Gedor. Ezer was the originator of the clans in Hushah. These were descendants of Hur, the firstborn of Ephrathah and the originator of Bethlehem.
I wonder if ULB is making explicit more than we want it to.
It doesn't seem to do it a lot in this chapter,
but I see it in 27:13-15 translating
"the Netophathite" as "from the city of Netophah"
and "the Pirathonite" as "from the city of Pirathon."
Did you read the comment in the UBS handbook it it quite extensive on this issue?
@drewcurley and @JohnH
Since this issue has the potential for a lot of change, could you both look at it?
Possibilities:
The ULB Handbook?
*UBS
Old ULB:
These were the ancestors of the clans in the city of Etam: Jezreel, Ishma, and Idbash. Their sister's name was Hazzelelponi. 4 Peniel was the ancestor of the clans in the city of Gedor. Ezer was the originator of the clans in Hushah. These were descendants of Hur, the firstborn of Ephrathah and the originator of Bethlehem.
Here is my suggestion:
These were the sons of Etam: Jezreel, Ishma, and Idbash. Their sister's name was Hazzelelponi. Peniel was the father/ancestor of Gedor. Ezer was the father of Hushah. These were descendants of Hur, the firstborn of Ephrathah and the father of Bethlehem.
The other stuff should reside in the tN, in my opinion.
I agree with all except the last sentence.
How about this?
These were descendants of Hur, the firstborn of Ephrathah, the father of Bethlehem.
(Ephrathah was the literal father of Hur, and was also either the father or founder of "Bethlehem.")
My version of Translator's Handbook on Translator's Workplace doesn't have anything on 1Chronicles.
I agree with Drew's suggestion with Susan's revision.
Should "Peniel" be "Penuel"?
You are right, that is how the NIV has it (Penuel)
Ok. Thank you. I changed it to this, and I'll check the tNs.
\v 3 These were the sons of Etam: Jezreel, Ishma, and Idbash. Their sister's name was Hazzelelponi.
\v 4 Penuel was the father of Gedor. Ezer was the father of Hushah. These were descendants of Hur, the firstborn of Ephrathah, the father of Bethlehem.
@drewcurley and @JohnH
Could one or both of you look at the revised TNs and comment or fix them?
Original Translation Notes
Jezreel ... Ishma ... Idbash
These are names of men. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Hazzelelponi
This is the name of a woman. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Gedor ... Hushah
These are names of cities. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Peniel ... Ezer ... Hur
These are the names of men. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
These were descendants of Hur
"Peniel and Ezer were descendants of Hur." This points forward to the list that will follow.
Ephrathah
This is the name of a woman. See how you translated this in 1 Chronicles 2:50.
Revised Notes:
These were the sons of Etam
Possible meanings are 1) Etam was a man, and the word "sons" refers to his own sons, or 2) Etam was a city, and "sons" is a metaphor meaning those who start a city. Alternate translation: These are the men who started the city of Etam" or 3) Etam was a city, and "sons" is a metaphor meaning the sons of the man who starts a city. Alternate translation: "These were the sons of the man who started the city of Etam." rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor, rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metonymy, and rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Jezreel ... Ishma ... Idbash
These are names of men. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Hazzelelponi
This is the name of a woman. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Penuel was the father of Gedor. Ezer was the father of Hushah.
There were towns named Gedor and Hushah. Possible meanings of these sentences are 1) "father" is a metaphor meaning someone who starts a city. Alternate translation: "Penuel started the city of Gedor, and Ezer started the city of Hushah", or 2) "father" is a metonym meaning "ancestor," and the cities' names are a metonym for the people living in the city. Alternate translation: "Penuel was the ancestor of the people of Gedor, and Ezer was the ancestor of the people of Hushah" or 3) the names Gedor and Hushah refer to two men. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor, rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metonymy, and rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Penuel ... Ezer ... Hur ... Ephrathah
These are the names of men. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
These were descendants of Hur
The word "These" refers to Penuel and Ezer.
Hur, the firstborn of Ephrathah
Hur was Ephrathah's first son.
Ephrathah, the father of Bethelem
Bethlehem is the name of a city. The word "father" is a metaphor meaning someone who starts a city. Alternate translation: "Ephrathah, who started the city of Bethlehem." (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor)
I think the notes are written well. My question is whether we need to give all this info to the translators. Do we want them making the decision about what this verse means and then making it explicit in their translation? Would it be better to give a little explanation but tell them it is better to translate literally?
This is what UBS says,
(5) ctat, however, gives a {C} rating to the mt and says that the sense of “father” here is “clan founder of a town” as in 1 Chr 2:42. This interpretation is recommended by the Handbook. ctat suggests the following translation: “These are the people who are the origin of the population of Etam: Jezreel.…” Compare “The founders of Etam were Jezreel …” (frcl, itcl; similarly gecl). A city named Etam, located 3.5 kilometers (about 2 miles) southwest of Bethlehem, is mentioned in 2 Chr 11:6.
But I don't think it's that important for the translation to make all the figurative uses clear in a genealogy like this. People can learn about Hebrew language and culture later.
These were the sons of Etam
Possible meanings are 1) Etam was a man, and the word "sons" refers to his own sons, or 2) Etam was a city, and "sons" is a metaphor meaning those who start a city. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor and rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Penuel was the father of Gedor. Ezer was the father of Hushah.
There were towns named Gedor and Hushah. Possible meanings of these sentences are 1) "father" is a metaphor meaning someone who starts a city, or 2) the names Gedor and Hushah refer to two men. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor, and rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
I'll come back to this.
I agree with John in principle, I like your wording.
Etam: a village (2Ch 11:6, 1 Ch 4:32) and possibly a cliff (Jdg 15:8, 11). No verses with a person by that name.
Gedor: a city (Jos 15:58; 1Ch 4:39; 12:7) and a man (1Ch 8:31; 9:37).
Hushah: occurs only in this verse.
Since it is more likely that the names Etam, Gedor, and Hushah refer to places in 1Ch 4:4, what would you think of me putting the place first?
These were the sons of Etam
There was a village named Etam. Possible meanings are 1) Etam was a city, and "sons" is a metaphor meaning those who start a city. or 2) Etam was a man, and the word "sons" refers to his own sons. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor and rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Penuel was the father of Gedor. Ezer was the father of Hushah.
There were towns named Gedor and Hushah, and there was a man named Gedor. Possible meanings of these sentences are 1) "father" is a metaphor meaning someone who starts a city, or 2) the names Gedor and Hushah refer to two men. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor and rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Or
These were the sons of Etam
There was a town named Etam. Possible meanings are 1) the name Etam refers to a man, and the word "sons" refers to his own son, or 2) Etam was a town, and "sons" is a metaphor meaning those who start a town (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor and rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Penuel was the father of Gedor. Ezer was the father of Hushah.
There was a man named Gedor and a town named Gedor. The name Hushah occurs only in this verse. Possible meanings are 1) the names Gedor and Hushah refer to two men, or 2) the names Gedor and Hushah refer to two towns, and "father" is a metaphor meaning someone who starts a town. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor and rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
I changed those to notes to these - not cluttered by Alternate translations.
the sons of Etam
There was a village named Etam. Possible meanings are 1) Etam was a man, and the word "sons" refers to his own sons, or 2) Etam here is the village, and "sons" is a metaphor meaning those who start a village. rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor and rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)
Penuel was the father of Gedor. Ezer was the father of Hushah.
There was a man named Gedor and a city named Gedor. The name Hushah occurs only in this verse. Possible meanings are 1) the names Gedor and Hushah refer to two men, or 2) the names Gedor and Hushah refer to cities, and "father" is a metaphor meaning someone who starts a city. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor and rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-names)