MAT 6:16-18: awkward and inconsistent wording

hmw3 commented

2020-08-11 13:08:31 +00:00

\v 16 "When you fast, do not have a mournful face as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces so that they may appear to people as fasting. Truly I say to you, they have received their reward in full.
\v 17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face
\v 18 so that it would not appear to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

The Greek words underlying the bolded words are (purposely, sez I) identical (except for grammatical subject) and so should be translated the same. The verb is subjunctive, so doing so is a bit tricky, and the use of the participle instead of a full clause increases the difficulty. I favor keeping the participles because it allows without extra words for the implication that they could be disfiguring their faces even when they're not fasting. I suggest this change to v. 18 only:

\v 18 so that you may not appear to others as fasting, but only to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

\v 16 "When you fast, do not have a mournful face as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces so that **they may appear to people as fasting**. Truly I say to you, they have received their reward in full. \v 17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face \v 18 so that **it would not appear to others that you are fasting**, but only to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. The Greek words underlying the bolded words are (purposely, sez I) identical (except for grammatical subject) and so should be translated the same. The verb is subjunctive, so doing so is a bit tricky, and the use of the participle instead of a full clause increases the difficulty. I favor keeping the participles because it allows without extra words for the implication that they could be disfiguring their faces even when they're not fasting. I suggest this change to v. 18 only: \v 18 so that **you may not appear to others as fasting**, but only to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-08-20 18:17:34 +00:00

Owner

I think people can get by with the current ULB. But I think it would be easier for the translators to have just one structure to figure out and not have the dummy "it" (it would not appear).

I vote for the change.

I think people can get by with the current ULB. But I think it would be easier for the translators to have just one structure to figure out and not have the dummy "it" (**it** would not appear). I vote for the change.

SusanQuigley added the

John

label 2020-08-20 18:17:39 +00:00

JohnH commented

2020-08-20 20:21:54 +00:00

Owner

I'm on the fence with this one. I don't think it is necessary, but I'm not against it. I'll tag Tom and let him make the final decision.

JohnH added

Tom

and removed

John

labels 2020-08-20 20:21:59 +00:00

SusanQuigley added the

Drew

label 2020-09-22 15:30:52 +00:00

drewc commented

2020-09-22 19:52:37 +00:00

Owner

Suggestion:

so that your fasting will not appear to others

Suggestion: so that your fasting will not appear to others

SusanQuigley commented

2020-09-22 20:48:43 +00:00

Owner

@drewcurley Is this what you meant?

\v 16 "When you fast, do not have a mournful face as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces so that they may appear to people as fasting. Truly I say to you, they have received their reward in full.
\v 17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face
\v 18 so that your fasting will not appear to others, but only to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

That sounds odd to me.

@drewcurley Is this what you meant? \v 16 "When you fast, do not have a mournful face as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces so that they may appear to people as fasting. Truly I say to you, they have received their reward in full. \v 17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face \v 18 **so that your fasting will not appear to others**, but only to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. That sounds odd to me.

drewc commented

2020-09-23 12:14:39 +00:00

Owner

It is a very literal rendering. You could replace appear with seen, but fasting is not something you really see per se.

What about:
so that your fasting will not be obvious to others

so that your fasting will not be noticed by others

so that people will not know you are fasting, but only your Father who is in secret will know

It is a very literal rendering. You could replace appear with seen, but fasting is not something you really see per se. What about: so that your fasting will not be obvious to others so that your fasting will not be noticed by others so that people will not know you are fasting, but only your Father who is in secret will know

SusanQuigley commented

2020-09-23 13:47:12 +00:00

Owner

I think Henry's point is that the ULB uses two different structures for the following phrases when the Greek has the same structure:

\v 16 ... so that they may appear to people as fasting....
\v 18 ... so that it would not appear to others that you are fasting ...

In v 16 the subject of appear is the people who who are fasting.
In v 18 the subject of "appear" is a "dummy it".

I'd be fine with leaving it as is making one of these changes:

More literal
\v 16 ... so that they may appear to people/others as fasting....
\v 18 ... so that you will not appear to people/others as fasting,

or
\v 16 ... so that it will appear to people/others that they are fasting....
\v 18 ... so that it will not appear to people/others that you are fasting ...

I'm not sure about the use of of may/might/will/would in explaining the behavior of the hypocrites versus the desired result of obeying the command in verse 16.

I think Henry's point is that the ULB uses two different structures for the following phrases when the Greek has the same structure: \v 16 ... so that they may appear to people as fasting.... \v 18 ... so that it would not appear to others that you are fasting ... In v 16 the subject of appear is the people who who are fasting. In v 18 the subject of "appear" is a "dummy it". I'd be fine with leaving it as is making one of these changes: More literal \v 16 ... so that they may appear to people/others as fasting.... \v 18 ... so that **you** will not appear to people/others **as** fasting, or \v 16 ... so that **it will** appear to people/others **that they** are fasting.... \v 18 ... so that it will not appear to people/others that you are fasting ... I'm not sure about the use of of may/might/will/would in explaining the behavior of the hypocrites versus the desired result of obeying the command in verse 16.

drewc commented

2020-09-23 14:00:59 +00:00

Owner

\v 16 ... so that they may appear to people to be fasting....
\v 18 ... so that you may not appear to people to be fasting,

\v 16 ... so that they may appear to people to be fasting.... \v 18 ... so that you may not appear to people to be fasting,

👍 1

hmw3 commented

2020-09-23 14:06:57 +00:00

Author

I like SQ's first, more literal suggestion, though I'd prefer to see the modal "may" rather than "will":

\v 18 ... so that you may not appear to people as fasting,

I like SQ's first, more literal suggestion, though I'd prefer to see the modal "may" rather than "will": \v 18 ... so that you **may** not appear to people as fasting,

hmw3 changed title from ~~MAT 6:14-16: awkward and inconsistent wording~~ to MAT 6:16-18: awkward and inconsistent wording

2020-09-23 14:07:33 +00:00

SusanQuigley changed title from ~~MAT 6:16-18: awkward and inconsistent wording~~ to MAT 6:16-18: awkward and inconsistent wording

2020-09-23 14:12:37 +00:00

SusanQuigley commented

2020-09-23 15:08:57 +00:00

Owner

I changed it to this:
\v 16 ... so that they may appear to people to be fasting....
\v 18 ... so that you may not appear to people to be fasting,

I changed it to this: \v 16 ... so that they may appear to people to be fasting.... \v 18 ... so that you may not appear to people to be fasting,

drewc closed this issue

2020-09-23 15:09:25 +00:00

MAT 6:16-18: awkward and inconsistent wording #626