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MAT 2:15, 17, 19: λέγοντος ... λέγοντος ... λέγων #608
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Reference: WycliffeAssociates/en_ulb#608
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λέγοντος is translated in v. 15 and λέγων is translated in v. 19, but λέγοντος is not translated in v. 17. I suggest it be translated for consistency's sake.
Agreed
The ULB of Mat 2:17 now reads:
\v 17 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
This has been applied to the Commit.
Tom W
Vs 20 not vs 19 has λέγων,
Current ULB of Mat 2:19-20
\v 19 When Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt and said,
\v 20 "Get up and take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the child's life are dead."
Should be
\v 19 When Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
\v 20 saying, "Get up and take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the child's life are dead."
OGNT has "saying" in vs 20 ...
Also Metzger Aland Greek text has, "saying" in vs 20.
Let me know.
Tom W
Will wait
According to Drew's email yesterday, the WA fork of the OGNT needs to be conformed to the ULB: λέγων would thus be moved to v. 19. (UBS3, which usually deals with such issues, has no alternate placement for the number.)
Did not know that. Who is in charge of updating the OGNT?
So even if the ULB is against majority of texts, we just charge along?
NIV
ESV
NET
GNT
RV
CEV "The angel said ..."
All agree with putting λέγων on vs 20.
Surely this would be a case of correcting an error in the ULB, and not an attempt to make the ULB into the OGNT.
Just sayin'
Thomas
Drew and I made 60 aligning changes to the ULB when Eli sent over his OGNT, we thought that we had most of the them, but there were some others that we overlooked.
The question of "should the OGNT be our standard source?" is different from
"is the ULB aligned with the OGNT?". It would seem that the OGNT does not align with the ULB and that the ULB does not align with the OGNT.
But that the OGNT is our standard, except when it isn't.
When the OGNT was a static thing, I understand why we had to change ULB to match OGNT. However, if we can now change the OGNT, it makes sense to me that we make decisions on an individual basis rather than saying one is always changed to agree with the other. Like in the case of Matt 2:19-20, I think we should decide what is best, then change the OGNT and/or ULB to agree with that decision.
From me to Drew yesterday:
You did tell me that there is a WA fork for the OGNT. What seemed to be up in the air was whether discrepancies between the OGNT and the ULB, specifically in regard to the placement of verse numbers, were to be resolved by changing the ULB or by changing the OGNT. My impression from the former conversation was the latter; I now have the impression ("we have retrospectively made it function as the source text") that the ULB will be conformed to the OGNT.
To me from Drew yesterday:
Versification is a notable exception. We are not going to change the versification because it would create tons of other issues. If you find any textual discrepancies between the OGNT and ULB, please let me know.
I am to make an issue when words in the ULB correspond to Greek words in the OGNT that are in another verse.
To me from Chris yesterday:
Hello all,
The ULB should not be having any more changes. Unless what the ULB states is heresy.
The ULB is created to be used by the Bible translator as a close to literal – yet with understanding – source text. It should not be a truly literal text.
As Drew mentioned, this is why the en_ULB_tagged was created for the GWT project.
Thanks for the emails, Henry.
When the ULB is a loneranger among versions, there must be an exception to correct the mistake, right?
Tom
The OGNT and most versions have "saying" in verse 20.
The ULB, ASV, NAS1977, NASB, NHEB, DBT, and WEB have it in verse 19.
Should we leave the ULB as is?
I am in favor of keeping the versification as is, I do not know how many changes we would have to make downstream if we start moving words or phrases from the verse where they are currently located
I'm fine with leaving "saying" in verse 19 if it prevents problems downstream.
Tom,
Above you said
The ULB of Mat 2:17 now reads:
\v 17 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
The current ULB still reads
\v 17 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet,
V17 has not yet been changed in the ULB to read "saying"
No one is in charge of updating the OGNT. Right now we are just noting issues in case there is a revision in the future. I did not want to redo any versification because it will affect so many resources. Therefore, we are keeping ULB versification.
\v 17 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
Changed in the ULB and committed, and sync'd.
Tom W