Last Review 1Ti 4:1-5

TomWarren commented

2020-08-04 17:52:28 +00:00

The ULB of 1Ti 4:2-5 currently reads:

\v 1 Now the Spirit clearly says that in later times some people will leave the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons
\v 2 in lying hypocrisy, their own consciences having been seared.

\s5
\v 3 They will forbid people to marry and require them to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
\v 4 For every creation of God is good, and nothing received with thanksgiving is to be rejected.
\v 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

The ULB of 1Ti 4:2-5 for suggested changes follow:

\v 1 Now the Spirit clearly says that in later times some people will leave the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons
\v 2 in lying hypocrisy, their own consciences having been seared.

\s5
\v 3 who forbid people to marry and require them to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
\v 4 For every creation of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
\v 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Putting some together ...

Tom W

The ULB of 1Ti 4:2-5 currently reads: \v 1 Now the Spirit clearly says that in later times some people will leave the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons \v 2 in lying hypocrisy, their own consciences having been seared. \s5 \v 3 **They will** forbid people to marry and require them to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. \v 4 For every creation of God is good, and nothing **received with thanksgiving** is to be rejected. \v 5 **For** it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. The ULB of 1Ti 4:2-5 for suggested changes follow: \v 1 Now the Spirit clearly says that in later times some people will leave the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons \v 2 in lying hypocrisy, their own consciences having been seared. \s5 \v 3 **who** forbid people to marry and require them to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. \v 4 For every creation of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected **if it is received with thanksgiving,** \v 5 **for** it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. Putting some together ... Tom W

TomWarren changed title from ~~Last Review 1Ti 4:2-5~~ to Last Review 1Ti 4:1-5

2020-08-04 17:54:48 +00:00

hmw3 commented

2020-08-04 19:45:53 +00:00

\v 1 Now the Spirit clearly says that in later times some people will leave the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons
\v 2 in lying hypocrisy, their own consciences having been **seared.

\s5
\v 3 who** forbid people to marry and require them to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Another transition stumbles over the \s5 marker. If nothing else, "who" should be capitalized or v. 2 should end with a comma.

It looks to me like we have a list of characteristics of the τινες, four items marked by participles, one of which is elided and one of which has a subordinate:

*προσέχοντες* πνεύμασιν πλάνοις καὶ διδασκαλίαις δαιμονίων, 
2 ἐν ὑποκρίσει *ψευδολόγων*, 
	*κεκαυστηριασμένων* τὴν ἰδίαν συνείδησιν, 
3 *κωλυόντων* γαμεῖν, 
[*saying* that everyone must] ἀπέχεσθαι βρωμάτων,

I'm a big fan of making lists look like lists:

\v 1 Now the Spirit clearly says that in later times some people will leave the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,
\v 2 telling hypocritical lies, their own consciences having been seared,

\s5
\v 3 forbidding people to marry and requiring them to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

\v 1 Now the Spirit clearly says that in later times some people will leave the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons \v 2 in lying hypocrisy, their own consciences having been **seared. \s5 \v 3 who** forbid people to marry and require them to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. Another transition stumbles over the \s5 marker. If nothing else, "who" should be capitalized or v. 2 should end with a comma. It looks to me like we have a list of characteristics of the τινες, four items marked by participles, one of which is elided and one of which has a subordinate: *προσέχοντες* πνεύμασιν πλάνοις καὶ διδασκαλίαις δαιμονίων, 2 ἐν ὑποκρίσει *ψευδολόγων*, *κεκαυστηριασμένων* τὴν ἰδίαν συνείδησιν, 3 *κωλυόντων* γαμεῖν, [*saying* that everyone must] ἀπέχεσθαι βρωμάτων, I'm a big fan of making lists look like lists: \v 1 Now the Spirit clearly says that in later times some people will leave the faith, **paying attention** to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, \v 2 **telling hypocritical lies**, their own consciences having been seared, \s5 \v 3 **forbidding** people to marry and **requiring** them to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-09-30 20:56:55 +00:00

Owner

3 "They will forbid people to marry" versus "who forbid people to marry"
The current ULB is adequate.

Making lists look like lists: This would be great if we had done that initially.

2 "in lying hypocricy". It's not easy to see how this phrase fits in the sentence. Perhaps it describes "the teachings of demons." Would it then mean that the demons would be hypocritical liars?

tN has this note:
in lying hypocrisy
This can be stated as a separate sentence if verse 1 is ended with a period. Alternate translation: "These people will be hypocrites and speak lies"

Perhaps that is adequate.

**3** "They will forbid people to marry" versus "who forbid people to marry" The current ULB is adequate. Making lists look like lists: This would be great if we had done that initially. **2** "in lying hypocricy". It's not easy to see how this phrase fits in the sentence. Perhaps it describes "the teachings of demons." Would it then mean that the demons would be hypocritical liars? tN has this note: **in lying hypocrisy** This can be stated as a separate sentence if verse 1 is ended with a period. Alternate translation: "These people will be hypocrites and speak lies" Perhaps that is adequate.

SusanQuigley added the

Drew

label 2020-09-30 21:42:41 +00:00

drewc commented

2020-10-07 19:49:13 +00:00

Owner

For verse 2, the Gk contraction is a dative noun (hypocricy) and a genitive adjective (liars). In this case, the adjective functions substantival. It does not modify the dative noun because it lacks agreement. I would say the "hypocricy of liars" as the CSB and NASB does is the best. Although the ESV is good too. Sorry for the longer explanation.

Suggested change: "by the hypocrisy of liars" or "by the insincerity of liars"

For verse 2, the Gk contraction is a dative noun (hypocricy) and a genitive adjective (liars). In this case, the adjective functions substantival. It does not modify the dative noun because it lacks agreement. I would say the "hypocricy of liars" as the CSB and NASB does is the best. Although the ESV is good too. Sorry for the longer explanation. Suggested change: "by the hypocrisy of liars" or "by the insincerity of liars"

SusanQuigley commented

2020-10-07 20:25:34 +00:00

Owner

2 Your "by the hypocrisy of liars" is clearer than "in lying hypocrisy"
What do you think?

Are the "some people" of v1 and the "liars" in v2 two different groups of people?
Are the liars the ones who pass on the teachings of demons and deceive the "some people" of v1?
If so, whose consciences are seared in v2?
And who will forbid people to marry in v3?

I just realized I didn't finish with this issue.

4 nothing received with thanksgiving is to be rejected" vs "nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving"
BSB is similar.
I don't see a difference in meaning.
I think the ULB is adequate

5 "For" vs "for"
Tom's suggestion is better, but ULB is adequate

So it looks like the only change I expect to make is to v2.

\v 1 Now the Spirit clearly says that in later times some people will leave the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons
\v 2 by the hypocrisy of liars, their own consciences having been seared.

\s5
\v 3 They will forbid people to marry and require them to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
\v 4 For every creation of God is good, and nothing received with thanksgiving is to be rejected.
\v 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

**2** Your "by the hypocrisy of liars" is clearer than "in lying hypocrisy" What do you think? * Are the "some people" of v1 and the "liars" in v2 two different groups of people? * Are the liars the ones who pass on the teachings of demons and deceive the "some people" of v1? * If so, whose consciences are seared in v2? * And who will forbid people to marry in v3? ----------- I just realized I didn't finish with this issue. **4** nothing received with thanksgiving is to be rejected" vs "nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving" BSB is similar. I don't see a difference in meaning. **I think the ULB is adequate** **5** "For" vs "for" Tom's suggestion is better, but **ULB is adequate** So it looks like the only change I expect to make is to v2. \v 1 Now the Spirit clearly says that in later times some people will leave the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons \v 2 **by the hypocrisy of liars**, their own consciences having been seared. \s5 \v 3 They will forbid people to marry and require them to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. \v 4 For every creation of God is good, and nothing received with thanksgiving is to be rejected. \v 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

drewc commented

2020-10-07 20:33:15 +00:00

Owner

Yes, they are two different group.
Yes, they are the ones who influence those who fall away.
The seared ones are the those who have fallen away
The ones who influence are those who forbid people to marry.

It can be helpful to think of the liars as false teachers. This can help you track the things they are teaching v. the things their "students" follow them and do.

I think we need to indicate that they in they forbid people to marry is the liars. Perhaps in a tN

Yes, they are two different group. Yes, they are the ones who influence those who fall away. The seared ones are the those who have fallen away The ones who influence are those who forbid people to marry. It can be helpful to think of the liars as false teachers. This can help you track the things they are teaching v. the things their "students" follow them and do. I think we need to indicate that they in they forbid people to marry is the liars. Perhaps in a tN

SusanQuigley commented

2020-10-07 20:34:26 +00:00

Owner

Thank you. That's the help I was needing.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-10-07 21:01:18 +00:00

Owner

Made changes to ULB and TN

SusanQuigley closed this issue

2020-10-07 21:01:18 +00:00

Last Review 1Ti 4:1-5 #568