Last Review Mat 6:9

TomWarren commented

2020-07-21 20:01:31 +00:00

The ULB of Mat 6:9 reads:
\v 9 Therefore pray like this:
\q 'Our Father in heaven,
\q2 may your name be honored as holy.

Phrase in question: honored as holy.
Greek text:
Οὕτως οὖν προσεύχεσθε ὑμεῖς·Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς· ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·

Extra info in ULB: "name be honored as holy" is repetitive holy, honored (same idea, and one is not present in the text)
There is a conflation of "honored" and "holy" that is not precise.

Suggestion:
\v 9 Therefore pray like this:
\q 'Our Father in heaven,
\q2 may your name be holy.
\q2

This protects the passive voice, "be holy" and does not speculate.

The ULB of Mat 6:9 reads: \v 9 Therefore pray like this: \q 'Our Father in heaven, \q2 may your name be honored as holy. Phrase in question: honored as holy. Greek text: Οὕτως οὖν προσεύχεσθε ὑμεῖς·Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς· **ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου**· Extra info in ULB: "name be honored as holy" is repetitive holy, honored (same idea, and one is not present in the text) There is a conflation of "honored" and "holy" that is not precise. Suggestion: \v 9 Therefore pray like this: \q 'Our Father in heaven, \q2 may your name be holy. \q2 This protects the passive voice, "be holy" and does not speculate.

hmw3 commented

2020-07-22 14:13:25 +00:00

L-N:
ἁγιάζωc: to feel reverence for or to honor as holy—‘to hallow, to regard as holy, to honor as holy.’ ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου ‘hallowed be your name’ or ‘may your name be honored as holy’ Mt 6:9.

A-S:
ἁγιάζω, Hellenistic form of ἁγίζω (< ἅγιος), to make holy, consecrate, sanctify; ... 4. to treat as holy: Mt 6:9

The emphasis seems to be on the attitude of the unspecified experiencer of ἁγιασθήτω, i.e., the people who regard God's name as holy, not on the essential nature of the grammatical subject ὄνομά.

"May ... be holy" is a stative, not a passive. Passive voice requires a transitive verb.

If "may ... be honored as holy" includes too much semantic baggage, "may ... be regarded as holy" or "may ... be treated as holy" might fit.

L-N: ἁγιάζωc: to feel reverence for or to honor as holy—‘to hallow, to regard as holy, to honor as holy.’ ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου ‘hallowed be your name’ or ‘may your name be honored as holy’ Mt 6:9. A-S: ἁγιάζω, Hellenistic form of ἁγίζω (< ἅγιος), to make holy, consecrate, sanctify; ... 4. to treat as holy: Mt 6:9 The emphasis seems to be on the attitude of the unspecified experiencer of ἁγιασθήτω, i.e., the people who regard God's name as holy, not on the essential nature of the grammatical subject ὄνομά. "May ... be holy" is a stative, not a passive. Passive voice requires a transitive verb. If "may ... be honored as holy" includes too much semantic baggage, "may ... be regarded as holy" or "may ... be treated as holy" might fit.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-09-03 19:42:42 +00:00

Owner

I think the current ULB with "may your name be honored as holy" is good.

CSB: your name be honored as holy.
GNT: May your holy name be honored;
HCSB: Your name be honored as holy.

The verb "hallow" is archaic. The following verbs come close to the idea, but they don't indicate that their object is holy: honor, revere, venerate, worship.
So I think we need to have a verb plus "as holy".

I think the current ULB with "may your name be honored as holy" is good. CSB: your name be honored as holy. GNT: May your holy name be honored; HCSB: Your name be honored as holy. The verb "hallow" is archaic. The following verbs come close to the idea, but they don't indicate that their object is holy: honor, revere, venerate, worship. So I think we need to have a verb plus "as holy".

drewc commented

2020-09-09 19:06:22 +00:00

Owner

I think it is fine, do we need to review tN?

drewc added the

Susan

label 2020-09-09 19:06:25 +00:00

SusanQuigley commented

2020-09-09 20:22:19 +00:00

Owner

@drewcurley
Mat 6:9 has this tN:

may your name be honored as holy
Here "your name" refers to God himself. Alternate translation: "make everyone honor you" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metonymy)

Maybe we could change it to this to deal with both the metonymy and the passive voice:

may your name be honored as holy
Here "your name" refers to God himself. This can also be expressed with an active verb. Alternate translation: "may people honor you as holy" or "may people honor you because you are holy" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metonymy and rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive)

If the ULB just had "May your name be holy" or "May your name be hallowed" or "May your name be sanctified," we might want a note saying that God's name is already holy and that the prayer is that people will honor him as such. But since the ULB already has "be honored as holy," I guess we don't need anything about that issue.

I wonder if we need something about the illocutionary force. Are we simply expressing something we desire, or are we asking God to do something? And if we are asking God to do something, what are we asking him to do?

CEV: help us to honor your name.
GWT: let your name be kept holy.

Would this note be appropriate?

may your name be honored as holy
This is a request that God will cause people to honor him as holy. Alternate translation: "Make people honor you as holy" or "Help us to honor you as holy"

@drewcurley Mat 6:9 has this tN: **may your name be honored as holy** Here "your name" refers to God himself. Alternate translation: "make everyone honor you" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metonymy) Maybe we could change it to this to deal with both the metonymy and the passive voice: **may your name be honored as holy** Here "your name" refers to God himself. This can also be expressed with an active verb. Alternate translation: "may people honor you as holy" or "may people honor you because you are holy" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metonymy and [[rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive]]) If the ULB just had "May your name be holy" or "May your name be hallowed" or "May your name be sanctified," we might want a note saying that God's name is already holy and that the prayer is that people will honor him as such. But since the ULB already has "be honored as holy," I guess we don't need anything about that issue. I wonder if we need something about the illocutionary force. Are we simply expressing something we desire, or are we asking God to do something? And if we are asking God to do something, what are we asking him to do? CEV: help us to honor your name. GWT: let your name be kept holy. Would this note be appropriate? **may your name be honored as holy** This is a request that God will cause people to honor him as holy. Alternate translation: "Make people honor you as holy" or "Help us to honor you as holy"

SusanQuigley added

Drew

and removed

Susan

labels 2020-09-09 20:51:58 +00:00

drewc commented

2020-09-09 21:09:07 +00:00

Owner

there is a note from a commentary that is significant here:

the acceptance of his kingship and the doing of his will involve human response (including that of the ones praying). To speak as Hagner does simply of “the divine passive” runs the danger of obscuring this human dimension, even though of course the point of including these wishes in a prayer is that it is by God’s intervention that they are to be fulfilled

R. T. France, The Gospel of Matthew, The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publication Co., 2007), 246.

I think the idea of make and cause are somewhat problematic.

I like this on:

###may your name be honored as holy

Here "your name" refers to God himself. This can also be expressed with an active verb. Alternate translation: "may people honor you as holy" or "may people honor you because you are holy" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metonymy and rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive)

I like your idea of illocutionary force. Perhaps something like, by asking for God to do this...people show that they want to honor God (or something like it).

I want to stay away from the phrase "This is a request that God will cause people to honor him as holy." Because this is not really a straightforward request. It is fulfilled by the asking of the question.

there is a note from a commentary that is significant here: the acceptance of his kingship and the doing of his will involve human response (including that of the ones praying). To speak as Hagner does simply of “the divine passive” runs the danger of obscuring this human dimension, even though of course the point of including these wishes in a prayer is that it is by God’s intervention that they are to be fulfilled R. T. France, The Gospel of Matthew, The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publication Co., 2007), 246. I think the idea of make and cause are somewhat problematic. I like this on: ###may your name be honored as holy Here "your name" refers to God himself. This can also be expressed with an active verb. Alternate translation: "may people honor you as holy" or "may people honor you because you are holy" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metonymy and rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive) I like your idea of illocutionary force. Perhaps something like, by asking for God to do this...people show that they want to honor God (or something like it). I want to stay away from the phrase "This is a request that God will cause people to honor him as holy." Because this is not really a straightforward request. It is fulfilled by the asking of the question.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-09-09 21:55:50 +00:00

Owner

How would these be?

may your name be honored as holy
Here "your name" refers to God himself. This can also be expressed with an active verb. Alternate translation: "may people honor you as holy" or "may people honor you because you are holy" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metonymy and rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive)

may your name be honored as holy
By saying this, people show that they want to honor God as holy. Alternate translation: "help us to honor your name as holy" or "we want to honor you as holy"

How would these be? **may your name be honored as holy** Here "your name" refers to God himself. This can also be expressed with an active verb. Alternate translation: "may people honor you as holy" or "may people honor you because you are holy" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metonymy and rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive) **may your name be honored as holy** By saying this, people show that they want to honor God as holy. Alternate translation: "help us to honor your name as holy" or "we want to honor you as holy"

drewc commented

2020-09-10 11:42:23 +00:00

Owner

I like those

SusanQuigley commented

2020-09-10 13:28:35 +00:00

Owner

I added to the one translation note and I added another note for "may your name be honored as holy".

SusanQuigley closed this issue

2020-09-10 13:28:35 +00:00

Last Review Mat 6:9 #449