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Gen 24:16 -- who knew? #431
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Reference: WycliffeAssociates/en_ulb#431
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וְאִ֖ישׁ לֹ֣א יְדָעָ֑הּ is translated "She had known no man."
BHS notes no different manuscript tradition, so the sentence should be translated "No man had known her."
From the Hebrew newbie: Isn't that qamets hey at the end of יְדָעָ֑הּ the 3fs subject marker?
This may show how rusty my Hebrew knowledge is, but I believe the qamets hey indicates the 3fs object which is attached to the verb. I think the pointing would be different if it were a 3fs verb.
This is what it would look like if the verb were 3fs.
Judges 11:39
HEB: וְהִיא֙ לֹא־ יָדְעָ֣ה אִ֔ישׁ וַתְּהִי־
NAS: he had made; and she had no
KJV: which he had vowed: and she knew no man.
INT: he no had A man became
Ok. Thanks. That's helpful.
So back to what Henry was saying about the subject in Gen 24:16.
It looks like the man should be the subject of the verb. However, it looks like we had stopped using the verb 'to know' to refer to sexual intimacy. That meaning is not included in the tW page for 'know'. Instead we used 'lie with'. It is included on the tW page for 'sleep'.
I did not find any occurrences of "sleep with" (with that meaning) but lots with 'lie with"
Would it be good to change it to this?
\v 16 The young woman was very beautiful and a virgin. No man had ever lain with her. She went down to the spring, filled her pitcher and came up.
Gen 4:1, 17 have translated as "knew" since 2018. I haven't looked elsewhere.
FYI, the text team tried to put "knew" rather than being too obtuse or too explicit with the tN to give help.
Heb knew, ידע occurring 952x in Hebrew just a few of them was about sex.
There was debate about "having sex with" or some such.
Lain, seems to be an archaism that may be difficult for Eng as second languagers.
Modern version seem to use "had sexual relations with ..."
ASV has "knew" or "knew her not" or "he knew her." But that is opaque, as well.
NIV11 has 45 times: sexual relations.
Here they are:
EXO 19:15 "sexual relations"
EXO 22:19 "sexual relations"
LEV 15:18 "sexual relations"
LEV 15:24 "sexual relations"
LEV 15:33 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:0 "Sexual Relations"
LEV 18:6 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:7 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:8 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:9 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:10 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:11 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:12 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:13 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:14 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:15 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:16 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:17 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:17 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:18 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:19 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:20 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:22 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:23 "sexual relations"
LEV 18:23 "sexual relations"
LEV 20:11 "sexual relations"
LEV 20:12 "sexual relations"
LEV 20:13 "sexual relations"
LEV 20:15 "sexual relations"
LEV 20:16 "sexual relations"
LEV 20:17 "sexual relations"
LEV 20:18 "sexual relations"
LEV 20:19 "sexual relations"
LEV 20:20 "sexual relations"
NUM 5:13 "sexual relations"
NUM 5:19 "sexual relations"
NUM 5:20 "sexual relations"
DEU 27:21 "sexual relations"
2SA 20:3 "sexual relations"
1KI 1:4 "sexual relations"
EZK 18:6 "sexual relations"
ROM 1:26 "sexual relations"
ROM 7:3 "sexual relations"
1CO 7:1 "sexual relations"
1CO 7:2 "sexual relations"
The ULB expresses this idea 58 times with some form of "lie with."
"lie with" 14 times in Gen, Lev, and 2Sa
"lies with" 22 times in Exo, Lev, Num, Deu
"lying with 9 times in Gen, Num, Deu, Jdg, 1Sam
"lay with" 9 times in Gen, Deu, 2Sa
"lain with" 3 times in Gen, Num, Ezk
Tom's examples are not of the translation of YD`.
I've only checked the first three of his examples, and the ULB seems to follow the Hebrew pretty "literally" (woodenly, whatever). I think it's well to translate literally and have tNs or tWs that explain that the biblical writers used a few different circumlocutions to refer to you-know-what.
I don't know if at this point it's a good idea to look for every instance of this meaning and check to see if it's translated literally or not.
Since we have "know" with this meaning at least 2 other times in the ULB, I'm fine with keeping "know" in Gen 24:16.
\v 16 The young woman was very beautiful and a virgin. No man had ever known her. She went down to the spring, filled her pitcher and came up.
Tom, what would you think of fixing the subject and object of "know" in Gen 24:16 so it reads like this?
\v 16 The young woman was very beautiful and a virgin. No man had ever known her. She went down to the spring, filled her pitcher and came up.
That works. Will do the change ....
The ULB of Gen 24:16 now reads:
\v 16 The young woman was very beautiful and a virgin. No man had ever known her. She went down to the spring, filled her pitcher and came up.
Gen 24:16 change committed to the Git
Thanks,
Tom