Daniel 1:4 educated men or Chaldeans

SusanQuigley commented

2020-06-19 18:57:49 +00:00

Owner

In Daniel, H3778 and H3779 are translated as "Chaldeans," "educated men," and even "Babylonian" depending on the context. That is fine. But I wonder about its translation in Daniel 1:4.

\v 4 young men without blemish, attractive in appearance, having insight in all wisdom, filled with knowledge and understanding, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the literature and language of the educated men.

Presumably the educated men did not have their own language. I wonder if the young men of
Israel were to learn the literature and language of the "Chaldeans". (Some versions translate it as "Babylonians" here, apparently because v1 refers to the king of Babylon/Babylonia.)

Would it be good to change "the educated men" in this verse to "the Chaldeans" or "the Babylonians"?

In Daniel, H3778 and H3779 are translated as "Chaldeans," "educated men," and even "Babylonian" depending on the context. That is fine. But I wonder about its translation in Daniel 1:4. \v 4 young men without blemish, attractive in appearance, having insight in all wisdom, filled with knowledge and understanding, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the literature and language of **the educated men.** Presumably the educated men did not have their own language. I wonder if the young men of Israel were to learn the literature and language of the "Chaldeans". (Some versions translate it as "Babylonians" here, apparently because v1 refers to the king of Babylon/Babylonia.) Would it be good to change "the educated men" in this verse to "the Chaldeans" or "the Babylonians"?

TomWarren commented

2020-06-22 13:07:50 +00:00

I did Daniel as text editor ... The word, כַּשְׂדִּים appears to mean (as Susan points out): (in various lexicons): Chaldeans as learned class, skilled in interpretations, not so much the nationality. That's what I went with.

I do see the historic reading of this, and it may be well to flip it, Chaldean in ULB, and then give a secondary reading elsewhere.

That is how I got what was put, but if it is changed, the tW may save the broader understanding of כַּשְׂדִּים as the learned, or educated people.

But, having said that:

... the writing and the language of the Chaldeans ..." could be closer to the HEB here;

Thanks,

Tom

I did Daniel as text editor ... The word, כַּשְׂדִּים appears to mean (as Susan points out): (in various lexicons): Chaldeans as learned class, skilled in interpretations, not so much the nationality. That's what I went with. I do see the historic reading of this, and it may be well to flip it, Chaldean in ULB, and then give a secondary reading elsewhere. That is how I got what was put, but if it is changed, the tW may save the broader understanding of כַּשְׂדִּים as the learned, or educated people. But, having said that: ... the writing and the language of the Chaldeans ..." could be closer to the HEB here; Thanks, Tom

SusanQuigley commented

2020-06-22 13:42:13 +00:00

Author

Owner

This is the only verse I'm thinking of. The other verses with 'Chaldean,' 'Babylonian' or 'the educated men' look good.

SusanQuigley added the

Henry

John

Tom

labels 2020-07-24 14:33:06 +00:00

JohnH commented

2020-07-24 18:21:18 +00:00

Owner

I agree with changing "the educated men" to "the Chaldeans" in Dan 1:4.

JohnH removed the

John

label 2020-07-24 18:21:27 +00:00

TomWarren commented

2020-07-27 18:31:13 +00:00

The ULB of Daniel 1:4 used to read:
\v 4 young men without blemish, attractive in appearance, having insight in all wisdom, filled with knowledge and understanding, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the literature and language of the educated men.

But not it is changed to read:
\v 4 young men without blemish, attractive in appearance, having insight in all wisdom, filled with knowledge and understanding, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans.

Please check if the tN needs to be changed.

Thanks,

Tom

The ULB of Daniel 1:4 used to read: \v 4 young men without blemish, attractive in appearance, having insight in all wisdom, filled with knowledge and understanding, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the literature and language of the educated men. But not it is changed to read: \v 4 young men without blemish, attractive in appearance, having insight in all wisdom, filled with knowledge and understanding, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans. _____________________________ Please check if the tN needs to be changed. Thanks, Tom

TomWarren added

Susan

John

and removed

Tom

labels 2020-07-27 18:31:22 +00:00

JohnH commented

2020-07-27 20:33:50 +00:00

Owner

I made this change to the notes:

Original

educated men
-Or "Chaldeans." This phrase translates a word that refers to a group of men whom people thought had special knowledge. Because the language they spoke is elsewhere called "Aramaic," the author was probably referring to group of men, rather than the people group or their language, here.

Change

Chaldeans
This phrase translates a word that refers to a group of men whom people thought had special knowledge. Because the language they spoke is elsewhere called "Aramaic," the author was probably referring to group of men, rather than the people group or their language, here.

I suppose that note is still relevant.

I made this change to the notes: Original **educated men** -Or "Chaldeans." This phrase translates a word that refers to a group of men whom people thought had special knowledge. Because the language they spoke is elsewhere called "Aramaic," the author was probably referring to group of men, rather than the people group or their language, here. Change **Chaldeans** This phrase translates a word that refers to a group of men whom people thought had special knowledge. Because the language they spoke is elsewhere called "Aramaic," the author was probably referring to group of men, rather than the people group or their language, here. I suppose that note is still relevant.

JohnH removed the

John

label 2020-07-27 20:34:23 +00:00

SusanQuigley commented

2020-07-27 21:47:43 +00:00

Author

Owner

@TomWarren This change to the ULB doesn't show up yet on the content server.

@JohnH This is about the tN. I think the former note needed "This word translates a word" because the ULB was using "educated men" to translate the word "Chaldeans". We have a tW for Chaldea saying that people who lived in the region of Chaldea were called Chaldeans.

Other versions translate the phrase as of the Chaldeans, of the Babylonians, Chaldean, and of Babylon. I don't see any reason not to understand "Chaldeans" here as simply referring to the people group. Maybe we don't even need a note for "Chaldeans."

@TomWarren This change to the ULB doesn't show up yet on the content server. @JohnH This is about the tN. I think the former note needed "This word translates a word" because the ULB was using "educated men" to translate the word "Chaldeans". We have a tW for Chaldea saying that people who lived in the region of Chaldea were called Chaldeans. Other versions translate the phrase as of the Chaldeans, of the Babylonians, Chaldean, and of Babylon. I don't see any reason not to understand "Chaldeans" here as simply referring to the people group. **Maybe we don't even need a note for "Chaldeans."**

SusanQuigley added

John

Tom

and removed

Susan

labels 2020-07-27 21:48:00 +00:00

JohnH commented

2020-07-28 13:29:52 +00:00

Owner

I originally deleted the note, but put it back in, thinking the original note writer had researched it and knew of a reason for it to be there.

I'm fine with deleting.

I originally deleted the note, but put it back in, thinking the original note writer had researched it and knew of a reason for it to be there. I'm fine with deleting.

JohnH removed the

John

label 2020-07-28 13:30:56 +00:00

SusanQuigley commented

2020-07-28 15:36:16 +00:00

Author

Owner

It's fine on WACS now.

SusanQuigley closed this issue

2020-07-28 15:36:16 +00:00

SusanQuigley commented

2020-07-28 15:57:54 +00:00

Author

Owner

Thanks, John. I'll delete the tN for Chaldeans in Dan 1:4. It's not until Dan 2:2 that "Chaldeans" refers to astrologers/wise men/wizards. (The ULB translates it as "educated men" in 2:2)

Daniel 1:4 educated men or Chaldeans #428