NEH 12:17 Who led Miniamin?

bobj commented

2019-11-05 12:17:40 +00:00

\v 16 Zechariah was the leader of Iddo, Meshullam was the leader of Ginnethon, and
\p
\v 17 Zikri was the leader of Abijah; Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah.

Issues:

UBS indicates that relating Piltai to both Miniamin and Moadiah as NIV has done cannot be supported by the Heb text.
The current ULB text is inconsistent with one of the current tNotes for this verse that states: The people who made the copies of Hebrew text mistakenly left out the name of the leader of the family of Miniamin. Translators may supply a footnote explaining this. The ULB uses "..." to show that the name of the leader is missing. Alternate translation: "Someone was the leader of Miniamin"
The UDB handles this issue as follows: \v 17 Zikri, of the family of Abijah; \q there was also a leader of the family of Miniamin; \q Piltai, of the family of Moadiah;
There is also an inconsistency in the punctuation of verses 16 & 17 compared with the rest of this list.

One suggestion would be to change the ULB of vv 16 & 17 to use the AT in the tN (and adjust the tN accordingly) and punctuate as follows:

\v 16 Zechariah was the leader of Iddo, Meshullam was the leader of Ginnethon,
\p
\v 17 Zikri was the leader of Abijah, someone was the leader of Miniamin, Piltai was the leader of Moadiah,

\v 16 Zechariah was the leader of Iddo, Meshullam was the leader of Ginnethon, and \p \v 17 Zikri was the leader of Abijah; Piltai was the leader of **Miniamin and** Moadiah. Issues: * UBS indicates that relating Piltai to both Miniamin and Moadiah as NIV has done cannot be supported by the Heb text. * The current ULB text is inconsistent with one of the current tNotes for this verse that states: The people who made the copies of Hebrew text mistakenly left out the name of the leader of the family of Miniamin. Translators may supply a footnote explaining this. The ULB uses "..." to show that the name of the leader is missing. Alternate translation: "Someone was the leader of Miniamin" * The UDB handles this issue as follows: \v 17 Zikri, of the family of Abijah; \q there was also a leader of the family of Miniamin; \q Piltai, of the family of Moadiah; * There is also an inconsistency in the punctuation of verses 16 & 17 compared with the rest of this list. One suggestion would be to change the ULB of vv 16 & 17 to use the AT in the tN (and adjust the tN accordingly) and punctuate as follows: **\v 16 Zechariah was the leader of Iddo, Meshullam was the leader of Ginnethon, \p \v 17 Zikri was the leader of Abijah, someone was the leader of Miniamin, Piltai was the leader of Moadiah,**

TomWarren commented

2019-11-05 14:46:04 +00:00

The alternative reading (someone was the leader of ...) is found in the CEV and CEVUK.

In cases like this, we defer to the NIV11, which in this case follows the Heb text. A textual matter that may be beyond the scope of textual criticism, in light of the majority of modern versions that are following the HEB at this point.

The ULB currently reads, I would concur with leaving it as it is:
\v 16 Zechariah was the leader of Iddo, Meshullam was the leader of Ginnethon, and
\p
\v 17 Zikri was the leader of Abijah; Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah.

This follows the ESVUS11, NIV11, ASV, NASB for verse 16

The CEV truncates vs 17, adding the HEB "of Miniamin" so that the sentence would read:

CEV: Zichri of Abijah (note 12:17: of Abijah: the Hebrew text adds "of Miniamin". Piltai of Moadiah.

I will ask for others to review this.

1.) That the ULB is correct in following the HEB at 12:16-17.
2.) Noting that most modern (literal versions) simply have the text as it appears in the HEB and they do not insert a footnote or an endnote at this matter.
3.) That the UDB should be corrected to follow the ULB.
4.) That the tNote should follow the ULB and UDB, or clearly mark the tNote as an Alternative reading (which would not appear as a footnote).
5.) Suggest that no note is necessary, as this is a higher level textual matter.

We decided not to make the UDB an alternative reading for the ULB, but to elucidate the meaning of the text, and so not to provide an alternative (which is the human desire to complete the meaning of something that is not completed).

The UBS Handbook has this lengthy explanation of this section of NEH 12:16-17

Miniamin is the full form of “Mijamin” in verse 5. The name of the head of the family of Miniamin is missing from the Hebrew text. A footnote should be used to explain that this is the reason for what looks like an omission in the list as presented by (also NJB , ). Relating Piltai to both Miniamin and Moadiah as has done cannot be supported by the Hebrew text since there is no “and” between the names.
Moadiah is a variant of “Maadiah” in verse 5. In this list, as in verse 6 above, the connective conjunction occurs in Hebrew before the name Joiarib , which possibly indicates names that have been added later to the list or some other distinction between the clans listed before and after this point. Sallai occurs here in place of “Sallu” in verse 7.

Records of priestly and Levite families (Neh 12.22-23) In this section a notice is given that the records of the heads of the priestly and Levite families were recorded in the Book of the Chronicles. Section Heading The heading is “Record of the Priestly and Levite Families.” Another possible heading is “Keeping records of the priests and Levites.”

But still, most versions do not offer a footnote or explanation at this point in the HEB text. The difficulties are settled by some, and left agape by others without resolution.

The alternative reading (someone was the leader of ...) is found in the CEV and CEVUK. In cases like this, we defer to the NIV11, which in this case follows the Heb text. A textual matter that may be beyond the scope of textual criticism, in light of the majority of modern versions that are following the HEB at this point. **The ULB currently reads, I would concur with leaving it as it is:** \v 16 Zechariah was the leader of Iddo, Meshullam was the leader of Ginnethon, and \p \v 17 Zikri was the leader of Abijah; Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah. This follows the ESVUS11, NIV11, ASV, NASB for verse 16 The CEV truncates vs 17, adding the HEB "of Miniamin" so that the sentence would read: CEV: Zichri of Abijah (note 12:17: *of Abijah*: the Hebrew text adds "*of Miniamin"*. Piltai of Moadiah. _________________________________ I will ask for others to review this. 1.) That the ULB is correct in following the HEB at 12:16-17. 2.) Noting that most modern (*literal versions*) simply have the text as it appears in the HEB and they do not insert a footnote or an endnote at this matter. 3.) **That the UDB should be corrected to follow the ULB.** 4.) **That the tNote should follow the ULB and UDB, or clearly mark the tNote as an Alternative reading (which would not appear as a footnote).** 5.) Suggest that no note is necessary, as this is a higher level textual matter. We decided not to make the UDB an alternative reading for the ULB, but to elucidate the meaning of the text, and so not to provide an alternative (which is the human desire to complete the meaning of something that is not completed). __________________________ The UBS Handbook has this lengthy explanation of this section of NEH 12:16-17 Miniamin is the full form of “Mijamin” in verse 5. The name of the head of the family of Miniamin is missing from the Hebrew text. A footnote should be used to explain that this is the reason for what looks like an omission in the list as presented by (also NJB , ). Relating Piltai to both Miniamin and Moadiah as has done cannot be supported by the Hebrew text since there is no “and” between the names. Moadiah is a variant of “Maadiah” in verse 5. In this list, as in verse 6 above, the connective conjunction occurs in Hebrew before the name Joiarib , which possibly indicates names that have been added later to the list or some other distinction between the clans listed before and after this point. Sallai occurs here in place of “Sallu” in verse 7. Records of priestly and Levite families (Neh 12.22-23) In this section a notice is given that the records of the heads of the priestly and Levite families were recorded in the Book of the Chronicles. Section Heading The heading is “Record of the Priestly and Levite Families.” Another possible heading is “Keeping records of the priests and Levites.” _______________________________ But still, most versions do not offer a footnote or explanation at this point in the HEB text. The difficulties are settled by some, and left agape by others without resolution.

SusanQuigley commented

2019-11-05 15:42:38 +00:00

Owner

If Zikri is the leader of both Abaijah and Miniamin, it seems odd to me that "of Miniamin" comes after Zikri. Do we have clear examples elsewhere of arguments on both sides having the same relation to the argument in the middle? If not, it looks to me like something got lost. That is, it looks like we don't know who was the leader of Miniamin. (Oops. When I wrote about arguments being on either side, I was thinking the the NIV said that *Zikri was the father of Abijah and Miniamin.)

However, 1) the ULB already says "Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah," 2) a few other versions explicitly say the same (NIV, Berean Study Bible, NET Bible), and 3) it does not affect any doctrine. So I'm fine with doing these things:

leave the ULB as is
match the UDB to the ULB
I'm not sure what to do about the tN. Remove it or explain the possible issue? (If we have not dealt with this kind of thing in tN, I would not want to start something new.)

In the Translation Manual, we have a page on Textual Variants.
I see 18 verse notes with links to it. Here are a few.

1Sa 14:18
Bring the ark of God here - A few versions have "ephod" here instead of "ark of God." (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-textvariants)

2Sa 3:12
to David - Some versions have "to David when he was at Hebron." You may want to include "when he was at Hebron" if it is present in your national version. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-textvariants)

2Sa 21:9
Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite - Some versions translate this as "Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite." (See: rc://en/ta/man/translate:translate_textvariants)

Act 10:19
three men are looking for you - Some ancient texts have a different number of men. (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-textvariants)

If Zikri is the leader of both Abaijah and Miniamin, it seems odd to me that "of Miniamin" comes after Zikri. Do we have clear examples elsewhere of arguments on both sides having the same relation to the argument in the middle? If not, it looks to me like something got lost. That is, it looks like we don't know who was the leader of Miniamin. (Oops. When I wrote about arguments being on either side, I was thinking the the NIV said that *<u>Zikri</u> was the father of Abijah and Miniamin.) However, 1) the ULB already says "Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah," 2) a few other versions explicitly say the same (NIV, Berean Study Bible, NET Bible), and 3) it does not affect any doctrine. So I'm fine with doing these things: 1. leave the ULB as is 2. match the UDB to the ULB 3. I'm not sure what to do about the tN. Remove it or explain the possible issue? (If we have not dealt with this kind of thing in tN, I would not want to start something new.) ------------ In the Translation Manual, we have a page on Textual Variants. I see 18 verse notes with links to it. Here are a few. 1Sa 14:18 **Bring the ark of God here** - A few versions have "ephod" here instead of "ark of God." (See: [[rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-textvariants]]) 2Sa 3:12 **to David** - Some versions have "to David when he was at Hebron." You may want to include "when he was at Hebron" if it is present in your national version. (See: [[rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-textvariants]]) 2Sa 21:9 **Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite** - Some versions translate this as "Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite." (See: [[rc://en/ta/man/translate:translate_textvariants]]) Act 10:19 **three men are looking for you** - Some ancient texts have a different number of men. (See: [[rc://en/ta/man/jit/translate-textvariants]])

TomWarren commented

2019-11-05 16:06:39 +00:00

The UDB of NEH 12:17 now reads: (following the ULB)

\v 16 Zechariah, of the family of Iddo; Meshullam, of the family of Ginnethon;
\q
\v 17 Zikri, of the family of Abijah; and Piltai, of the family of Miniamin and Moadiah;

Following the ULB, which now reads, without change:

\v 16 Zechariah was the leader of Iddo, Meshullam was the leader of Ginnethon, and
\p
\v 17 Zikri was the leader of Abijah; Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah

Noting the paragraphs are different in ULB and UDB ... I made the ULB and UDB parallel in THIS section, following the ULB (one uses the semi, the other just a comma)

The tN is problematic because IF the ULB and UDB don't have the issues and there was a tN on the matter (that didn't exist in the UDB and ULB texts, where would the translators find it, and to what end? How would they resolve it?

The UDB of NEH 12:17 now reads: (following the ULB) \v 16 Zechariah, of the family of Iddo; Meshullam, of the family of Ginnethon; \q \v 17 Zikri, of the family of Abijah; and Piltai, of the family of Miniamin and Moadiah; Following the ULB, which now reads, without change: \v 16 Zechariah was the leader of Iddo, Meshullam was the leader of Ginnethon, and \p \v 17 Zikri was the leader of Abijah; Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah Noting the paragraphs are different in ULB and UDB ... I made the ULB and UDB parallel in THIS section, following the ULB (one uses the semi, the other just a comma) The tN is problematic because IF the ULB and UDB don't have the issues and there was a tN on the matter (that didn't exist in the UDB and ULB texts, where would the translators find it, and to what end? How would they resolve it?

TomWarren commented

2019-11-05 16:23:57 +00:00

Leaving open until the tN matter is resolved.

Thanks to Bob Johnson and to Susan Quigley,

Tom Warren

Leaving open until the tN matter is resolved. Thanks to Bob Johnson and to Susan Quigley, Tom Warren

SusanQuigley commented

2019-11-05 16:35:28 +00:00

Owner

I'm trying these.

Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah - Some scholars think that the name of Miniamin's leader is missing from the copies of the Hebrew text. Alternate translation: "Someone was the leader of Miniamin, and Piltai was the leader of Moadiah" or "Miniamin, and Piltai was the leader of Moadiah

Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah - It is not clear how the phrase "of Miniamin" fits in the sentence. Alternate translation: "Someone was the leader of Miniamin, and Piltai was the leader of Moadiah"

Actually, it might be better to just ignore the issue. Even if translators have access to a Bible that does not translate it as the ULB does, it's probably not worth their effort to try to understand the issue that the note would address. I'll delete it.

If someone else can write an accurate and simple translation note, go for it.

I'm trying these. **Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah** - Some scholars think that the name of Miniamin's leader is missing from the copies of the Hebrew text. Alternate translation: "Someone was the leader of Miniamin, and Piltai was the leader of Moadiah" or "Miniamin, and Piltai was the leader of Moadiah **Piltai was the leader of Miniamin and Moadiah** - It is not clear how the phrase "of Miniamin" fits in the sentence. Alternate translation: "Someone was the leader of Miniamin, and Piltai was the leader of Moadiah" Actually, it might be better to just ignore the issue. Even if translators have access to a Bible that does not translate it as the ULB does, it's probably not worth their effort to try to understand the issue that the note would address. I'll delete it. If someone else can write an accurate and simple translation note, go for it.

SusanQuigley closed this issue

2019-11-05 16:42:22 +00:00

TomWarren commented

2019-11-05 17:53:04 +00:00

Thanks Susan. Agree with keeping it out of the discussion for our translators.

TW

Thanks Susan. Agree with keeping it out of the discussion for our translators. TW

TomWarren commented

2019-11-07 16:43:08 +00:00

The UDB seems to read:

\v 16 Zechariah, of the family of Iddo; Meshullam, of the family of Ginnethon;
\q
\v 17 Zikri, of the family of Abijah; and Piltai, of the family of Miniamin and Moadiah;

Take a look Bob.

Thanks,

Tom

The UDB seems to read: \v 16 Zechariah, of the family of Iddo; Meshullam, of the family of Ginnethon; \q \v 17 Zikri, of the family of Abijah; and Piltai, of the family of Miniamin and Moadiah; Take a look Bob. Thanks, Tom

NEH 12:17 Who led Miniamin? #14