perish

SusanQuigley commented

2020-04-24 13:24:07 +00:00

Owner

The TW page for 'perish' talks a lot about it being used in the Bible for eternal punishment in hell.
"Perish" occurs 155 times in the ULB, most of them being about physical death. I think we need to add something about that. We don't want people to think that in the ULB it is only used for eternal punishment.

https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tw/src/branch/master/bible/kt/perish.md

WycliffeAssociates/en_ulb#312 (comment)

The TW page for 'perish' talks a lot about it being used in the Bible for eternal punishment in hell. "Perish" occurs 155 times in the ULB, most of them being about physical death. I think we need to add something about that. We don't want people to think that in the ULB it is only used for eternal punishment. https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tw/src/branch/master/bible/kt/perish.md https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_ulb/issues/312#issuecomment-1375

hmw3 commented

2020-04-24 15:57:27 +00:00

Contributor

I think @SusanQuigley is correct. I suggest all of this be deleted:

In the Bible, it especially has the meaning of being punished for eternity in hell.

People who are "perishing" are those who are destined for hell because they have refused to believe in Jesus for their salvation.
John 3:16 teaches that "perish" means to not live eternally in heaven.

I would put in its place something like this:

The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for living eternally in hell.

I think @SusanQuigley is correct. I suggest all of this be deleted: In the Bible, it especially has the meaning of being punished for eternity in hell. People who are "perishing" are those who are destined for hell because they have refused to believe in Jesus for their salvation. John 3:16 teaches that "perish" means to not live eternally in heaven. I would put in its place something like this: The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for living eternally in hell.

TomWarren commented

2020-04-27 17:10:36 +00:00

There are 90 uses of ἀπόλλυμι (perish) /
/ 155 in the ULB ..
(there are 109 perish in the ESV).

There are several Heb terms that follow perish
Checking ESV perish against alternative renderings ... just through Deu (for a sample)
רָעָב - perish
נפל - fail
אבד - perish 10x, destroy (Deut 28:20 destroy and perish side by side)
מות - die

Just a sampling of the diversity of words that can mean perish, die, fail, destroy ...

There are 90 uses of ἀπόλλυμι (perish) / / 155 in the ULB .. (there are 109 perish in the ESV). There are several Heb terms that follow perish Checking ESV perish against alternative renderings ... just through Deu (for a sample) רָעָב - perish נפל - fail אבד - perish 10x, destroy (Deut 28:20 destroy and **perish** side by side) מות - die Just a sampling of the diversity of words that can mean perish, die, fail, destroy ...

hmw3 commented

2020-04-27 17:32:09 +00:00

Contributor

If there's no objection today from @SusanQuigley , @TomWarren , or @JohnH , I will make the change I proposed and close the issue.

👍 1

SusanQuigley commented

2020-06-29 15:59:54 +00:00

Author

Owner

The change hasn't been made yet.

Also, I wonder if the following statement should be deleted. I think we can rightly interpret "perish" this way in John 3:16, but I don't think that John 3:16 teaches that "perish" means this.

John 3:16 teaches that "perish" means to not live eternally in heaven.

"Vanish" and "lose" also link to this page. Maybe they should be defined.

Definition section would be just this:

The term "perish" means to die or be destroyed, usually as the result of violence or other disaster.

The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for living eternally in hell.
The words "vanish" and "be lost" can be used to refer to perishing.
Something that is "imperishable" will never perish.

The change hasn't been made yet. Also, I wonder if the following statement should be deleted. I think we can rightly interpret "perish" this way in John 3:16, but I don't think that John 3:16 teaches that "perish" means this. * John 3:16 teaches that "perish" means to not live eternally in heaven. "Vanish" and "lose" also link to this page. Maybe they should be defined. Definition section would be just this: The term "perish" means to die or be destroyed, usually as the result of violence or other disaster. * The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for living eternally in hell. * The words "vanish" and "be lost" can be used to refer to perishing. * Something that is "imperishable" will never perish.

hmw3 commented

2020-06-29 16:13:25 +00:00

Contributor

Thumbs up on an issue doesn't notify the commenter that an approval has been made.

I think @SusanQuigley is right as usual. If others commment that the change should be made, I am happy to make it.

Thumbs up on an issue doesn't notify the commenter that an approval has been made. I think @SusanQuigley is right as usual. If others commment that the change should be made, I am happy to make it.

SusanQuigley added the

John H

Tom W

labels 2020-06-29 17:36:48 +00:00

TomWarren commented

2020-06-29 18:46:59 +00:00

I support Susan's last recommendation.

TomWarren removed the

Tom W

label 2020-06-29 18:47:11 +00:00

JohnH commented

2020-06-30 13:27:39 +00:00

Owner

I agree with the changes suggested above, except I'm not sure we need "vanish" or "lose." We wouldn't want people coming to this page when these words are used in normal ways like "Jesus vanishing behind a cloud" or "losing wealth." Maybe when those words mean "perish" we could deal with them individually with notes, if needed.

JohnH removed the

John H

label 2020-06-30 13:27:47 +00:00

SusanQuigley commented

2020-06-30 14:14:57 +00:00

Author

Owner

@hmw3 Henry, please see John's comment above. When "vanish" and "lose" are used in normal ways, are they prevented from linking to this page? If not, perhaps we should delete them from this page.

SusanQuigley added the

Henry

label 2020-06-30 14:15:07 +00:00

hmw3 commented

2020-06-30 16:21:38 +00:00

Contributor

I'm OK with deleting them from the page and will do so.

hmw3 removed the

Henry

label 2020-06-30 16:21:47 +00:00

SusanQuigley commented

2020-06-30 21:56:03 +00:00

Author

Owner

Henry and I made the changes, and now the page says this:

The term "perish" means to die or be destroyed, usually as the result of violence or other disaster.

The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for living eternally in hell.
Something that is "imperishable" will never perish.

Translation Suggestions:

Depending on the context, ways to translate this term could include "die" or "be destroyed" or "be punished in hell."
Make sure that the translation of "perish" can mean living eternally in hell and does not only mean "cease to exist."

SQ. I think that the first and last bullets about "living eternally in hell" loses the lost/death image and could be confusing. I wonder if it would be better to focus on being destroyed/punished. Also some of the metaphorical uses refer to people who are already perishing.

Some passages talk about perishing in the future tense.

Mat 18:14 In the same way, it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Acts 13:41 'Look, you despisers, and be astonished and then perish;

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and as many as have sinned with respect to the law will be judged by the law.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord does not move slowly concerning his promises, as some consider slowness to be. Instead, he is patient toward you. He does not desire for any of you to perish, but for everyone to make room for repentance.

And some talk about people perishing now. These people are not already in hell. But they are on that path. Perhaps "those who are perishing" could be translated as "those who will be punished."

1Co 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. But among those who are being saved, it is the power of God.

2Co 2:15 For we are to God the sweet aroma of Christ, both among those who are saved and among those who are perishing.
2Co 2:16 To the people who are perishing, it is an aroma from death to death. To the ones being saved, it is an aroma from life to life. Who is worthy of these things?

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.

2Th 2:10 and with every kind of evil that deceives those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

@hmw3 @JohnH
What would you think of me changing it to this?

The term "perish" means to die or be destroyed, usually as the result of violence or other disaster.

The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for being punished in hell or for being destined to punishment in hell.
Something that is "imperishable" will never perish.

Translation Suggestions:

Depending on the context, ways to translate this term could include "die" or "be destroyed" or "be punished in hell" or "be destined to be punishment."
When perish is a metaphor, make sure that the translation of "perish" does not mean "cease to exist."

Henry and I made the changes, and now the page says this: The term "perish" means to die or be destroyed, usually as the result of violence or other disaster. * The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for living eternally in hell. * Something that is "imperishable" will never perish. **Translation Suggestions:** * Depending on the context, ways to translate this term could include "die" or "be destroyed" or "be punished in hell." * Make sure that the translation of "perish" can mean living eternally in hell and does not only mean "cease to exist." -------- SQ. I think that the first and last bullets about "**living** eternally in hell" loses the lost/death image and could be confusing. I wonder if it would be better to focus on being destroyed/punished. Also some of the metaphorical uses refer to people who are already perishing. **Some passages talk about perishing in the future tense.** Mat 18:14 In the same way, it is not the will of your Father in heaven **that one of these little ones should perish.** Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him **will not perish but have eternal life.** Acts 13:41 'Look, you despisers, and be astonished **and then perish**; Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without the law **will also perish without the law,** and as many as have sinned with respect to the law will be judged by the law. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord does not move slowly concerning his promises, as some consider slowness to be. Instead, he is patient toward you. **He does not desire for any of you to perish,** but for everyone to make room for repentance. **And some talk about people perishing now.** These people are not already in hell. But they are on that path. Perhaps "those who are perishing" could be translated as "those who will be punished." 1Co 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to **those who are perishing.** But among those who are being saved, it is the power of God. 2Co 2:15 For we are to God the sweet aroma of Christ, both among those who are saved and among **those who are perishing.** 2Co 2:16 To **the people who are perishing**, it is an aroma from death to death. To the ones being saved, it is an aroma from life to life. Who is worthy of these things? 2Co 4:3 But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to **those who are perishing.** 2Th 2:10 and with every kind of evil that deceives **those who are perishing,** because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. -------- @hmw3 @JohnH **What would you think of me changing it to this?** The term "perish" means to die or be destroyed, usually as the result of violence or other disaster. * The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for being punished in hell or for being destined to punishment in hell. * Something that is "imperishable" will never perish. **Translation Suggestions:** * Depending on the context, ways to translate this term could include "die" or "be destroyed" or "be punished in hell" or "be destined to be punishment." * When perish is a metaphor, make sure that the translation of "perish" does not mean "cease to exist."

SusanQuigley added the

John H

Henry

labels 2020-06-30 21:56:51 +00:00

hmw3 commented

2020-06-30 22:13:26 +00:00

Contributor

@SusanQuigley sounds good.

hmw3 removed the

Henry

label 2020-06-30 22:13:38 +00:00

JohnH commented

2020-07-01 11:28:35 +00:00

Owner

The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for being punished in hell or for being destined to punishment in hell.

Suggestion: The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for a person being punished in hell either presently or in the future.

**The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for being punished in hell or for being destined to punishment in hell.** Suggestion: The word "perish" can also be a metaphor for a person being punished in hell either presently or in the future.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-07-01 13:20:53 +00:00

Author

Owner

Thank you, all. I'll close it now.

SusanQuigley closed this issue

2020-07-01 13:20:56 +00:00

perish #9