OBA 18 #1

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opened 2019-10-04 09:37:01 +00:00 by chrisjarka · 6 comments
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Sent in by a Gateway Language Translator.

Should the question about Edom refer to Esau instead? The ULB does not have “Edom” [in verse 18].

Q - How many of Edom would escape the judgment of Yahweh?

A - There would be no survivors in Edom after Yahweh's judgment.

While the book is a vision about Edom verse 18 does specifically refer to the action happening to the 'house of Esau.'

\v 18 The house of Jacob will be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau will be stubble, and they will burn them, and consume them. There will be no survivors to the house of Esau, for Yahweh has spoken it."

Perhaps the relationship between the use of 'Esau' and 'Edom' needs to be reviewed in either the question or answer? Unless the translator has read the Introduction to the book they might not understand that they reference to the 'house of Esau' is the same as 'Edom.' Or keep it simple and change the question to:

Q - How many people of the house of Esau would escape the judgment of Yahweh?

A - There would be no survivors after Yahweh's judgment.

Sent in by a Gateway Language Translator. **Should the question about Edom refer to Esau instead? The ULB does not have “Edom” [in verse 18].** Q - How many of Edom would escape the judgment of Yahweh? A - There would be no survivors in Edom after Yahweh's judgment. While the book is a vision about Edom verse 18 does specifically refer to the action happening to the 'house of Esau.' \v 18 The house of Jacob will be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau will be stubble, and they will burn them, and consume them. There will be no survivors to the house of Esau, for Yahweh has spoken it." Perhaps the relationship between the use of 'Esau' and 'Edom' needs to be reviewed in either the question or answer? Unless the translator has read the Introduction to the book they might not understand that they reference to the 'house of Esau' is the same as 'Edom.' Or keep it simple and change the question to: Q - How many people of the house of Esau would escape the judgment of Yahweh? A - There would be no survivors after Yahweh's judgment.

There is a long discourse in the UBS handbook ...

This verse continues the theme of the Lord's people regaining the land that had been taken from them after the fall of Jerusalem, especially the land taken by the Edomites.

Verse 17 states the basic fact that the people of Israel will regain their lost territory, and verses 18-20 give the details of how this will happen. Appropriately, the details begin with the Edomites, the people this book has been mostly concerned with. In Hebrew the verse opens with two lines that are parallel in form and overlapping in meaning, as shown by the literal translation of HEBREW has combined these two lines into one, as it often does elsewhere, and stated the full meaning in a single clause, The people of Jacob and of Joseph will be like fire . Here Jacob stands for the people of Judah, and Joseph for the people of Israel. The two names together mean the survivors of both kingdoms, that is, the entire Jewish nation.

Since Joseph was historically Jacob's son, it may sound strange in some languages to refer to his descendants as though they are a different group of people from his father's descendants. Even in languages that do not have this problem, it is unlikely that many readers will know what these names are meant to refer to. Therefore some translators may prefer to translate as “the people of Judah and Israel” or even as “the people of the northern and southern parts of Israel.” edited for brevity

No descendant of Esau will survive : the completeness of the destruction is emphasized by the word survive , which echoes “survivors” () in verse 14. The Edomites had handed over the survivors of Judah to the Babylonians. When the time came for the descendants of those survivors to carry out the Lord's punishment on Edom, “there shall be no survivor” (). Esau will be left with no descendant . The verse is rounded off with a reminder that this is not just a man's nationalistic dream, but the purpose of the Lord. In the Hebrew here as in verse 15, the reference to the Lord is in the third person, and again translates this in the first person, I, the LORD have spoken , since the whole of verses 2-21 are understood as the direct words of the Lord. It may be unnatural in some languages to put a statement like this in the middle of a person's speech. Thus, since the Lord is still speaking in the following verses, it may not sound right for him to say I … have spoken in verse 18. The meaning is that these things will happen because they are the will of the Lord, and it can therefore be translated as something like “I declare that this must happen,” or “All of this will happen according to my will.”

FYI TW

There is a long discourse in the UBS handbook ... This verse continues the theme of the Lord's people regaining the land that had been taken from them after the fall of Jerusalem, especially the land taken by the Edomites. Verse 17 states the basic fact that the people of Israel will regain their lost territory, and verses 18-20 give the details of how this will happen. Appropriately, the details begin with the Edomites, the people this book has been mostly concerned with. In Hebrew the verse opens with two lines that are parallel in form and overlapping in meaning, as shown by the literal translation of HEBREW has combined these two lines into one, as it often does elsewhere, and stated the full meaning in a single clause, The people of Jacob and of Joseph will be like fire . Here Jacob stands for the people of Judah, and Joseph for the people of Israel. The two names together mean the survivors of both kingdoms, that is, the entire Jewish nation. Since Joseph was historically Jacob's son, it may sound strange in some languages to refer to his descendants as though they are a different group of people from his father's descendants. Even in languages that do not have this problem, it is unlikely that many readers will know what these names are meant to refer to. Therefore some translators may prefer to translate as “the people of Judah and Israel” or even as “the people of the northern and southern parts of Israel.” edited for brevity No descendant of Esau will survive : the completeness of the destruction is emphasized by the word survive , which echoes “survivors” () in verse 14. The Edomites had handed over the survivors of Judah to the Babylonians. When the time came for the descendants of those survivors to carry out the Lord's punishment on Edom, “there shall be no survivor” (). Esau will be left with no descendant . The verse is rounded off with a reminder that this is not just a man's nationalistic dream, but the purpose of the Lord. In the Hebrew here as in verse 15, the reference to the Lord is in the third person, and again translates this in the first person, I, the LORD have spoken , since the whole of verses 2-21 are understood as the direct words of the Lord. It may be unnatural in some languages to put a statement like this in the middle of a person's speech. Thus, since the Lord is still speaking in the following verses, it may not sound right for him to say I … have spoken in verse 18. The meaning is that these things will happen because they are the will of the Lord, and it can therefore be translated as something like “I declare that this must happen,” or “All of this will happen according to my will.” FYI TW

Perhaps a in the tN or a question in the tQ it may be helpful to have a line about the descendants of the same father, in some places are not considered in the same family (for several reasons) ...

TW

Perhaps a in the tN or a question in the tQ it may be helpful to have a line about the descendants of the same father, in some places are not considered in the same family (for several reasons) ... TW
Owner

Are you talking about "The house of Jacob" and "the house of Joseph"?

Are you talking about "The house of Jacob" and "the house of Joseph"?
Owner

I agree with the suggestion sent by the GL translator and made the change to the tQ.

I agree with the suggestion sent by the GL translator and made the change to the tQ.
Owner

How about a note like this for 1:18?

The house of Jacob ... the house of Joseph
Often "the house of Jacob" represents Israel, but here it represents only the people in the southern part of Israel. Joseph was one of Jacob's sons. Here "the house of Joseph" represents the people in the norther part of Israel.

How about a note like this for 1:18? **The house of Jacob ... the house of Joseph** Often "the house of Jacob" represents Israel, but here it represents only the people in the southern part of Israel. Joseph was one of Jacob's sons. Here "the house of Joseph" represents the people in the norther part of Israel.

That is good. This is something that many readers wouldn't ring a bell, but for the careful reader, it is good to have help about the connections. TW

That is good. This is something that many readers wouldn't ring a bell, but for the careful reader, it is good to have help about the connections. TW
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Reference: WycliffeAssociates/en_tq#1
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