SNG Notes about Speakers

SusanQuigley commented

2020-12-09 21:33:38 +00:00

Owner

ULB Issue 868: We decided to delete the speaker identifiers
UDB Issue 43: We decided to delete the speaker identifiers

https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tn/src/branch/master/sng/front/intro.md
What are the lines about people speaking?
The Song of Songs is a poem that shows the thoughts and words of a man, a woman, and the woman’s friends. Throughout the poem, the author does not identify the speakers and their audience. So to help readers understand the poem, some translations attempt to identify the speaker and the audience. It is not always certain who the speaker is, so sometimes translations disagree about who is speaking.

Before each speech, the ULB identifies the speaker and the audience like this: “The woman speaking to the other women,” “The woman speaking to the man,” “The man speaking to the woman,” or “The woman speaking to herself.” Translators are encouraged to include these ways of identifying the speaker and the audience and to format them differently from the scripture text. The translators should also include a note explaining that these explanations are not actually part of the scripture.

I deleted this section and added the following paragraph to the section about the number of characters:

The poem shows the thoughts and words of all these people. However, the author does not identify the speakers and their audience, so it is not always clear who the speaker and audience are. The Translation Notes give information about who they might be throughout the book.

I will add the General Info notes before I delete the lines from the ULB and UDB.

ULB Issue 868: We decided to delete the speaker identifiers UDB Issue 43: We decided to delete the speaker identifiers https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tn/src/branch/master/sng/front/intro.md **What are the lines about people speaking?** The Song of Songs is a poem that shows the thoughts and words of a man, a woman, and the woman’s friends. Throughout the poem, the author does not identify the speakers and their audience. So to help readers understand the poem, some translations attempt to identify the speaker and the audience. It is not always certain who the speaker is, so sometimes translations disagree about who is speaking. Before each speech, the ULB identifies the speaker and the audience like this: “The woman speaking to the other women,” “The woman speaking to the man,” “The man speaking to the woman,” or “The woman speaking to herself.” Translators are encouraged to include these ways of identifying the speaker and the audience and to format them differently from the scripture text. The translators should also include a note explaining that these explanations are not actually part of the scripture. ------ I deleted this section and added the following paragraph to the section about the number of characters: The poem shows the thoughts and words of all these people. However, the author does not identify the speakers and their audience, so it is not always clear who the speaker and audience are. The Translation Notes give information about who they might be throughout the book. ------- I will add the General Info notes before I delete the lines from the ULB and UDB.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-12-09 22:32:40 +00:00

Author

Owner

Here are my suggestions for Gen Info notes. These would only go in the notes for the first verse mentioned.

In 1:1-5 the woman sometimes speaks to herself and sometimes speaks to the man she loves.
In 1:5-6 the woman speaks to the other women.
In 1:7 the woman speaks to the man.
In 1:8-11 the man speaks to the woman.
In 1:12-14 the woman speaks to herself.
In 1:15 the man speaks to the woman.
In 1:16-17 the woman speaks to the man.

In 2:1 the woman speaks to the man.
In 2:2 the man speaks to the woman.
In 2:3-4 the woman speaks to herself.
In 2:5 the woman speaks to the man.
In 2:6 the woman speaks to herself.
In 2:7 the woman speaks to other women.
In 2:8-14 the woman speaks to herself.
In 2:10-14 the woman speaks to herself about things the man said to her.
In 2:15-17 the woman speaks to the man. Hmm. NIV has the man saying 2:15.

I wanted to indicate the uncertainty, but there's so much uncertainty, I don't know if that might be too cumbersome and add confusion. Even in places where we have "the woman speaks to the man" I don't think we know if she is portrayed as actually saying those things or as thinking about what she might say to him.

Perhaps I could do something like this:
In 2:15-17, it is probably the woman speaking to the man.

But then it would take a lot of time to decide when to use "probably" and when not to. And to distinguish whether the question is about the speaker or the audience. (It might be obvious who one is and not obvious who the other is.)

Another possibility is to ignore who the audience might be.
In cc:vv-vv, X speaks.
In cc:vv-vv, it is probably X speaking.

What do you think?

Here are my suggestions for Gen Info notes. These would only go in the notes for the first verse mentioned. In 1:1-5 the woman sometimes speaks to herself and sometimes speaks to the man she loves. In 1:5-6 the woman speaks to the other women. In 1:7 the woman speaks to the man. In 1:8-11 the man speaks to the woman. In 1:12-14 the woman speaks to herself. In 1:15 the man speaks to the woman. In 1:16-17 the woman speaks to the man. In 2:1 the woman speaks to the man. In 2:2 the man speaks to the woman. In 2:3-4 the woman speaks to herself. In 2:5 the woman speaks to the man. In 2:6 the woman speaks to herself. In 2:7 the woman speaks to other women. In 2:8-14 the woman speaks to herself. In 2:10-14 the woman speaks to herself about things the man said to her. In 2:15-17 the woman speaks to the man. [[Hmm. NIV has the man saying 2:15.]] I wanted to indicate the uncertainty, but there's so much uncertainty, I don't know if that might be too cumbersome and add confusion. Even in places where we have "the woman speaks to the man" I don't think we know if she is portrayed as actually saying those things or as thinking about what she might say to him. Perhaps I could do something like this: In 2:15-17, it is probably the woman speaking to the man. But then it would take a lot of time to decide when to use "probably" and when not to. And to distinguish whether the question is about the speaker or the audience. (It might be obvious who one is and not obvious who the other is.) Another possibility is to ignore who the audience might be. In cc:vv-vv, X speaks. In cc:vv-vv, it is probably X speaking. What do you think?

SusanQuigley added the

John

Drew

labels 2020-12-09 22:33:33 +00:00

JohnH commented

2020-12-10 15:15:24 +00:00

Owner

Another option is to use the wording you have listed: "In 1:1-5 the woman sometimes speaks to herself and sometimes speaks to the man she loves" etc.

Then have extra explanation at the beginning of each chapter that says "the speaker and audience is not always certain"

Another option is to use the wording you have listed: "In 1:1-5 the woman sometimes speaks to herself and sometimes speaks to the man she loves" etc. Then have extra explanation at the beginning of each chapter that says "the speaker and audience is not always certain"

SusanQuigley commented

2020-12-10 15:38:29 +00:00

Author

Owner

Thanks. That sounds like a good idea. I'll try it here.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-12-10 18:39:34 +00:00

Author

Owner

Sometimes we can tell who is being spoken to because of the form of the Hebrew word for "you". I think sometimes it's actually harder to tell who the speaker is (The woman speaking to the man, or the women speaking to the man.?

How about if I put a note like this at the beginning of each chapter?

General Information: Throughout the book, it is not always clear who is speaking or who they are speaking to. We have notes telling who some scholars think the speakers are.

And then just copy and paste in the ones we had in the ULB as much as possible?

Sometimes we can tell who is being spoken to because of the form of the Hebrew word for "you". I think sometimes it's actually harder to tell who the speaker is (The woman speaking to the man, or the women speaking to the man.? How about if I put a note like this at the beginning of each chapter? **General Information:** Throughout the book, it is not always clear who is speaking or who they are speaking to. We have notes telling who some scholars think the speakers are. And then just copy and paste in the ones we had in the ULB as much as possible?

JohnH commented

2020-12-10 18:52:34 +00:00

Owner

Yes, I think that is a good idea.