Jer 49:25 city ... abandoned, the town of my joy

SusanQuigley commented

2020-11-11 20:50:25 +00:00

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ULB
\v 25 How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?

How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?
Yahweh uses a question to express that the people should have left the city. It can be translated as a statement. Alternate translation: "This famous city once caused me to rejoice, but now the people should leave it." (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-rquestion)

How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?
Some Bibles translate this with the people of Damascus speaking. Alternate translation: "The people of Damascus say, 'The famous city, which once made us rejoice, is now empty.'"

The ATs in the two notes are very different without any explanation. ("now the people should leave it" vs "is now empty)

Different ideas about this verse.

The Lamed is לֹֽא־ 'not'. The Lamed is the emphatic ל. (NET Bible notes)
"My joy" as in Hebrew text. "Joy" (without "my".) (NET Bible notes)
"the city of my joy" or "the joyous city" (UBS-Translator's Handbook) (People wonder how God could call Damascus the city of his joy, so some translations omit "my".)
Yahweh is speaking. The people of Damascus are speaking. (UBS- Translator's Handbook)

What to do?

Leave it as is?
Delete the second note?
Present this as possible meanings?

Ideas:

How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?
Possible meanings are 1) the speaker is surprised that people have not abandoned the city when danger is coming. Alternate translation: "Why have they not left the city of praise, the town of my joy?" or 2) the speaker is exclaiming that that city has been abandoned or will be abandoned because of the danger. Alternate translation: "The city of praise, the town of my joy, has been abandoned" or "The city of praise, the town of my joy, will be abandoned."

How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of ... joy?
Possible meanings are 1) the speaker is God, or 2) the speaker is the people of the city of Damascus.

the city of praise ... the town of my joy
These two phrases both refer to Damascus.

the city of praise
"the city that people used to praise" or "the famous city"

the town of my joy
Possible meanings are 1) the speaker has felt joy because of the town. Alternate translation: "the town that brought me joy" or 2) the people in the town were usually joyful. Alternate translation: "the joyous town" or "the town that had joy"

Verse 26 leads me to think that the people have not left Damascus. I don't know why some people think that לֹֽא־ 'not' is wrong.
\v 26 Therefore its young men will fall in its plazas,
\q and all the fighting men will perish on that day—this is the declaration of Yahweh of hosts."

ULB \v 25 How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy? **How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?** Yahweh uses a question to express that the people should have left the city. It can be translated as a statement. Alternate translation: "This famous city once caused me to rejoice, but now the people should leave it." (See: [[rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-rquestion]]) **How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?** Some Bibles translate this with the people of Damascus speaking. Alternate translation: "The people of Damascus say, 'The famous city, which once made us rejoice, is now empty.'" The ATs in the two notes are very different without any explanation. ("now the people should leave it" vs "is now empty) Different ideas about this verse. 1. The Lamed is לֹֽא־ 'not'. The Lamed is the emphatic ל. (NET Bible notes) 2. "My joy" as in Hebrew text. "Joy" (without "my".) (NET Bible notes) 3. "the city of my joy" or "the joyous city" (UBS-Translator's Handbook) (People wonder how God could call Damascus the city of his joy, so some translations omit "my".) 4. Yahweh is speaking. The people of Damascus are speaking. (UBS- Translator's Handbook) What to do? 1. Leave it as is? 2. Delete the second note? 3. Present this as possible meanings? Ideas: **How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?** Possible meanings are 1) the speaker is surprised that people have not abandoned the city when danger is coming. Alternate translation: "Why have they not left the city of praise, the town of my joy?" or 2) the speaker is exclaiming that that city has been abandoned or will be abandoned because of the danger. Alternate translation: "The city of praise, the town of my joy, has been abandoned" or "The city of praise, the town of my joy, will be abandoned." **How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of ... joy?** Possible meanings are 1) the speaker is God, or 2) the speaker is the people of the city of Damascus. **the city of praise ... the town of my joy** These two phrases both refer to Damascus. **the city of praise** "the city that people used to praise" or "the famous city" **the town of my joy** Possible meanings are 1) the speaker has felt joy because of the town. Alternate translation: "the town that brought me joy" or 2) the people in the town were usually joyful. Alternate translation: "the joyous town" or "the town that had joy" Verse 26 leads me to think that the people have not left Damascus. I don't know why some people think that לֹֽא־ 'not' is wrong. \v 26 Therefore its young men will fall in its plazas, \q and all the fighting men will perish on that day—this is the declaration of Yahweh of hosts."

JohnH commented

2020-11-11 21:53:49 +00:00

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I don't think we can leave it as is.

The second note says "some Bibles translate this with the people of Damascus speaking." I don't see any English version on Biblehub that do this.

The AT in the second note and your AT's in the second part of your possible meaning note confuse me. I'm not sure how those statements mean the same thing as the RQ. Even if it is the people of Damascus speaking, it seems it would mean "We should leave the city of praise, the town of our joy."

I don't understand how the RQ could mean the city has been abandoned or will be abandoned.

I'm not sure it is helpful to mention that this could be the people of Damascus speaking, but if we do, what about something like this:

How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?
Possible meanings are 1) Yahweh is speaking is saying that the people should leave. Alternate translation: “Why have they not left the city of praise, the town of my joy?” or 2) the people of Damascus are speaking and are saying they should leave the city because of the danger. Alternate translation: "We should leave the city of praise, the town of our joy."

The rest of your notes look good.

I don't think we can leave it as is. The second note says "some Bibles translate this with the people of Damascus speaking." I don't see any English version on Biblehub that do this. The AT in the second note and your AT's in the second part of your possible meaning note confuse me. I'm not sure how those statements mean the same thing as the RQ. Even if it is the people of Damascus speaking, it seems it would mean "We should leave the city of praise, the town of our joy." I don't understand how the RQ could mean the city has been abandoned or will be abandoned. I'm not sure it is helpful to mention that this could be the people of Damascus speaking, but if we do, what about something like this: **How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?** Possible meanings are 1) Yahweh is speaking is saying that the people should leave. Alternate translation: “Why have they not left the city of praise, the town of my joy?” or 2) the people of Damascus are speaking and are saying they should leave the city because of the danger. Alternate translation: "We should leave the city of praise, the town of our joy." The rest of your notes look good.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-11-12 14:43:10 +00:00

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Concerning the AT in the second note: It's not that the RQ means “The city of praise, the town of my joy, has been abandoned” or “The city of praise, the town of my joy, will be abandoned,” but that some people think that the לֹֽא־ 'not' in the Hebrew manuscripts is a mistake that the copiers made -- that they mistook the emphatic ל for לֹֽא־ 'not'.

JohnH commented

2020-11-12 15:15:28 +00:00

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Is there actual manuscript evidence that לֹֽא is supposed to be ל? That is, are there any ancient manuscripts that have ל?

SusanQuigley commented

2020-11-12 15:29:29 +00:00

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God speaking versus people speaking
ULB Translator's Handbooks quotes R.K. Harrison saying "The remark about the celebrated city (25) is put into the mouth of a citizen of Damascus," and it gives a model that follows that possibility.

But I don't see any English translations having it be the people of Damascus speaking. So I'm fine with ignoring that possibility. It seems to be a way of getting rid of the confusing idea that the city of Damascus was God's delight. (I think the issue with "city of my joy' versus 'city of joy' might be the same issue.)

Negation issue
This is the לֹֽא־ ‘not’ versus emphatic ל.

NET Bible Notes says "The translation follows the majority of modern commentaries in understanding לֹֽא־ (lo’, “not”) before “abandoned” as a misunderstanding of the emphatic ל (lamed; so J. A. Thompson, Jeremiah [NICOT], 723, n. 3, and J. Bright, Jeremiah [AB], 333, n. c; see also IBHS 211–12 §11.2.10i and HALOT 485-86 s.v. II ül for the phenomenon). The particle is missing from the Vulgate.

NET: How deserted will that once-famous city be, that city that was once filled with joy!
NLT: That famous city, a city of joy, will be forsaken!
GNT: The famous city that used to be happy is completely deserted.

If we want to include this possibility, maybe we could do it like this.

How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?
One ancient translation does not have the word 'not'. Most scholars believe that the word 'not' was not in the original Hebrew text. Possible meanings are 1) the speaker is surprised that people have not abandoned the city when danger is coming. Alternate translation: “Why have they not left the city of praise, the town of my joy?” or 2) the speaker is exclaiming that that city has been abandoned or will be abandoned because of the danger. Alternate translation: “The city of praise, the town of my joy, has been abandoned” or “The city of praise, the town of my joy, will be abandoned.”

But that's a long complex note, and v26 does not make sense following "the city has been abanoned" or "the city will be abaondoned"

Meaning of Rhetorical question
I'm fine with the saying that it means that the speaker is surprised or perhaps that he is even saying that the people should have left. But if the speaker is telling them to leave, then v26 doesn't seem to make sense.

**God speaking versus people speaking** ULB Translator's Handbooks quotes R.K. Harrison saying "The remark about the celebrated city (25) is put into the mouth of a citizen of Damascus," and it gives a model that follows that possibility. But I don't see any English translations having it be the people of Damascus speaking. So I'm fine with ignoring that possibility. It seems to be a way of getting rid of the confusing idea that the city of Damascus was God's delight. (I think the issue with "city of my joy' versus 'city of joy' might be the same issue.) -------------- **Negation issue** This is the לֹֽא־ ‘not’ versus emphatic ל. NET Bible Notes says "The translation follows the majority of modern commentaries in understanding לֹֽא־ (lo’, “not”) before “abandoned” as a misunderstanding of the emphatic ל (lamed; so J. A. Thompson, Jeremiah [NICOT], 723, n. 3, and J. Bright, Jeremiah [AB], 333, n. c; see also IBHS 211–12 §11.2.10i and HALOT 485-86 s.v. II ül for the phenomenon). The particle is missing from the Vulgate. NET: How deserted will that once-famous city be, that city that was once filled with joy! NLT: That famous city, a city of joy, will be forsaken! GNT: The famous city that used to be happy is completely deserted. **If** we want to include this possibility, maybe we could do it like this. **How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?** One ancient translation does not have the word 'not'. Most scholars believe that the word 'not' was not in the original Hebrew text. Possible meanings are 1) the speaker is surprised that people have not abandoned the city when danger is coming. Alternate translation: “Why have they not left the city of praise, the town of my joy?” or 2) the speaker is exclaiming that that city has been abandoned or will be abandoned because of the danger. Alternate translation: “The city of praise, the town of my joy, has been abandoned” or “The city of praise, the town of my joy, will be abandoned.” But that's a long complex note, and v26 does not make sense following "the city has been abanoned" or "the city will be abaondoned" ------------- **Meaning of Rhetorical question** I'm fine with the saying that it means that the speaker is surprised or perhaps that he is even saying that the people **should have left**. But if the speaker is telling them to leave, then v26 doesn't seem to make sense.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-11-12 15:31:58 +00:00

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I don't know of any Hebrew manuscript evidence. Just the lack of 'not' in the Vulgate.

Thompson's NICOT commentary doesn't even discuss it. It just assumes no negation:
24–25 The once powerful city which knew joy and gladness, the former leader of Aramean coalitions (Isa. 7:8), was forsaken. The cause of this may have been the Assyrians who brought the independence of Damascus to an end in 732 B.C. and incorporated the area into the Assyrian province of Hamath. Verse 25 may be understood as the remark of a citizen of Damascus about the once celebrated city.

I don't know of any Hebrew manuscript evidence. Just the lack of 'not' in the Vulgate. Thompson's NICOT commentary doesn't even discuss it. It just assumes no negation: 24–25 The once powerful city which knew joy and gladness, the former leader of Aramean coalitions (Isa. 7:8), was forsaken. The cause of this may have been the Assyrians who brought the independence of Damascus to an end in 732 B.C. and incorporated the area into the Assyrian province of Hamath. Verse 25 may be understood as the remark of a citizen of Damascus about the once celebrated city.

JohnH commented

2020-11-12 16:33:51 +00:00

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I think this gets too complicated for the notes. I suggest writing the notes that explain how the majority of English versions translate it, that is, not mentioning the possibility of the people of Damascus speaking or the ל issue.

If we need to get into it, maybe discussing it in the commentary would be better.

I think this gets too complicated for the notes. I suggest writing the notes that explain how the majority of English versions translate it, that is, not mentioning the possibility of the people of Damascus speaking or the ל issue. If we need to get into it, maybe discussing it in the commentary would be better.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-11-12 16:34:59 +00:00

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I like that idea. Thanks. I'll work on it.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-11-12 17:05:09 +00:00

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How would these be?

How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?
Yahweh uses a question to show surprise that the people have not left the city when danger is coming. He may have meant that they should have left the city. This can also be expressed in active form. Alternate translation: "Why have they not abandoned the city of praise, the town of my joy?” or "They should have abandoned the city of praise, the town of my joy." (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-rquestion and rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive)

the city of praise ... the town of my joy
These two phrases both refer to Damascus.

the city of praise
“the city that people used to praise” or “the famous city”

the town of my joy
Possible meanings are 1) Yahweh had felt joy because of the town. Alternate translation: “the town that brought me joy” or 2) the people in the town were usually joyful. Alternate translation: “the joyous town” or “the town that had joy”

How would these be? **How has the city of praise not been abandoned, the town of my joy?** Yahweh uses a question to show surprise that the people have not left the city when danger is coming. He may have meant that they should have left the city. This can also be expressed in active form. Alternate translation: "Why have they not abandoned the city of praise, the town of my joy?” or "They should have abandoned the city of praise, the town of my joy." (See: [[rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-rquestion]] and [[rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive]]) **the city of praise ... the town of my joy** These two phrases both refer to Damascus. **the city of praise** “the city that people used to praise” or “the famous city” **the town of my joy** Possible meanings are 1) Yahweh had felt joy because of the town. Alternate translation: “the town that brought me joy” or 2) the people in the town were usually joyful. Alternate translation: “the joyous town” or “the town that had joy”

JohnH commented

2020-11-12 19:09:44 +00:00

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Is it problematic to say Yahweh was surprised?

Everything else looks good to me.

Is it problematic to say Yahweh was surprised? Everything else looks good to me.

SusanQuigley commented

2020-11-12 19:14:26 +00:00

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Yes. I think it would be problematic to say that Yahweh was surprised. But I don't think it's problematic to say that he said something in order to show surprise. It's part of communicating how bad it will be for Damascus.