Mat 12:33 A tree and its fruit

SusanQuigley commented

2020-08-21 17:31:57 +00:00

Owner

The first note calls this a proverb:

Make a tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad
Possible meanings are 1) "If you make a tree good, its fruit will be good, and if you make the tree bad, its fruit will be bad" or 2) "If you consider a tree to be good, it is because its fruit is good, and if you consider a tree to be bad, it is because its fruit is bad." This was a proverb. People were to apply its truth to how they can know whether a person is good or bad.

The third note says that person and fruit are metaphors.

a tree is recognized by its fruit
The words "tree" and "fruit" are metaphors for a person and his deeds, respectively. This can be translated in active form. Alternate translation: "people recognize trees by their fruit" or "people know whether a person is good or bad by looking at the results of that person's activities" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive and rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor)

I wonder if we should drop the idea of metaphor and keep with proverb.

Here's my suggestion for the note about the fruit.

a tree is recognized by its fruit
This can be stated in active form. Alternate translation: "people know whether a tree is good or bad by looking at its fruit" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive)

a tree is recognized by its fruit
If people cannot figure out how to apply this part of the proverb, the meaning can be translated plainly. Alternate translation: "In the same way, a person's character is recognized by the results of what he does" or "people know whether a person is good or bad by looking at the results of that person's activities" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/writing-proverbs)

The first note calls this a proverb: **Make a tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad** Possible meanings are 1) "If you make a tree good, its fruit will be good, and if you make the tree bad, its fruit will be bad" or 2) "If you consider a tree to be good, it is because its fruit is good, and if you consider a tree to be bad, it is because its fruit is bad." **This was a proverb. People were to apply its truth to how they can know whether a person is good or bad.** The third note says that person and fruit are metaphors. **a tree is recognized by its fruit** The words "tree" and "fruit" are metaphors for a person and his deeds, respectively. This can be translated in active form. Alternate translation: "people recognize trees by their fruit" or "people know whether a person is good or bad by looking at the results of that person's activities" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive and rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-metaphor) I wonder if we should drop the idea of metaphor and keep with proverb. Here's my suggestion for the note about the fruit. **a tree is recognized by its fruit** This can be stated in active form. Alternate translation: "people know whether a tree is good or bad by looking at its fruit" (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive) **a tree is recognized by its fruit** If people cannot figure out how to apply this part of the proverb, the meaning can be translated plainly. Alternate translation: "In the same way, a person's character is recognized by the results of what he does" or "people know whether a person is good or bad by looking at the results of that person's activities" (See: [[rc://en/ta/man/jit/writing-proverbs]])

JohnH commented

2020-08-21 17:51:00 +00:00

Owner

I think what Susan suggests is much clearer.

JohnH commented

2020-11-19 16:40:54 +00:00

Owner

Looking at this 2 months later, do we need to give advice about how to translate the ULB so the readers can apply a proverb?

SusanQuigley commented

2020-11-19 18:49:10 +00:00

Author

Owner

I think I was wrong about that. I don't think the translation of the proverb should include its interpretation.

How about these?

Make a tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit badF
Possible meanings are 1) “If you make a tree good, its fruit will be good, and if you make the tree bad, its fruit will be bad” or 2) “If a tree is good, it will have good fruit, and if a tree is bad, it will have bad fruit.” This was a proverb. People were to apply its truth to how they can know whether a person is good or bad.

good ... bad
“healthy ... diseased”

a tree is recognized by its fruit
This can be stated in active form. Alternate translation: “people know whether a tree is good or bad by looking at its fruit” (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive)

I think I was wrong about that. I don't think the translation of the proverb should include its interpretation. How about these? **Make a tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit badF** Possible meanings are 1) “If you make a tree good, its fruit will be good, and if you make the tree bad, its fruit will be bad” or 2) “If a tree is good, it will have good fruit, and if a tree is bad, it will have bad fruit.” This was a proverb. People were to apply its truth to how they can know whether a person is good or bad. **good ... bad** “healthy ... diseased” **a tree is recognized by its fruit** This can be stated in active form. Alternate translation: “people know whether a tree is good or bad by looking at its fruit” (See: rc://en/ta/man/jit/figs-activepassive)

JohnH commented

2020-11-19 19:51:05 +00:00

Owner

These look good, except the final "F" at the end of the first note :)