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COBT Training: Divine Familial Terms #21

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opened 2021-01-05 16:52:56 +00:00 by SusanQuigley · 10 comments
SusanQuigley commented 2021-01-05 16:52:56 +00:00
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https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tm/src/branch/susanquigley-issue-14/intro/statement-of-faith/01.md

This is what I wrote about the divine familial Terms on the "Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms" page in COBT.

Divine Familial Terms

The divine familial terms are the words "Father" and "Son" when they refer to God the Father and God the Son. God is divine, and these terms show their family relationship to each other. Whenever the words "Father" and "Son" are used in the Bible to refer to the relationship between God the Father and God the Son (or between God the Father and Jesus Christ), they should be translated with the literal, ordinary words that people use to show the relationship between a man and his own son. (See: Translating Son and Father and Son of God and God the Father.)

  1. Do you want any changes to that?
  2. Would you want something like this added to it:
    • All contributors to the Bible In Every Language website (see https://bibleineverylanguage.org) agree to use common family terms for translating “Father” and “Son” when the original languages use those words to refer to God”.
    • The JIT page says Wycliffe Associates strongly encourages Bible translations that represent the concepts “Father” and “Son” when they refer to God. If this is a policy statement, it seems good to have the policy in COBT Training - perhaps as worded in the bullet above.
  3. Drew said that the wording "when the original languages use those words to refer to God" was not very clear. How about "when the original languages use those words to refer to God as the Father or as the Son of God" or "when the original languages use those words to refer to God as the Father and to God the Son as the Son of God."
https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tm/src/branch/susanquigley-issue-14/intro/statement-of-faith/01.md This is what I wrote about the divine familial Terms on the "Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms" page in COBT. ----------- **Divine Familial Terms** The divine familial terms are the words "Father" and "Son" when they refer to God the Father and God the Son. God is divine, and these terms show their family relationship to each other. Whenever the words "Father" and "Son" are used in the Bible to refer to the relationship between God the Father and God the Son (or between God the Father and Jesus Christ), they should be translated with the literal, ordinary words that people use to show the relationship between a man and his own son. (See: [Translating Son and Father](../jit/guidelines-sonofgodprinciples/01.md) and [Son of God and God the Father](../jit/guidelines-sonofgod/01.md).) 1. Do you want any changes to that? 2. Would you want something like this added to it: * All contributors to the Bible In Every Language website (see https://bibleineverylanguage.org) agree to use common family terms for translating “Father” and “Son” when the original languages use those words to refer to God”. * The JIT page says Wycliffe Associates strongly encourages Bible translations that represent the concepts “Father” and “Son” when they refer to God. If this is a policy statement, it seems good to have the policy in COBT Training - perhaps as worded in the bullet above. 4. Drew said that the wording "when the original languages use those words to refer to God" was not very clear. How about "when the original languages use those words to refer to God as the Father or as the Son of God" or "when the original languages use those words to refer to God as the Father and to God the Son as the Son of God."
TabithaJoy commented 2021-01-05 18:45:34 +00:00
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This looks good. for #2, I like your first bullet point and think it should be added. Personally, I think "strongly encourages" is too week. I think we should probably say, "Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting translations that comply with common language usage of Father and Son when refering to God."

I am OK with changing the wording as you suggested. I don't think the other way sounds unclear, but will defer to you and Drew on that.

This looks good. for #2, I like your first bullet point and think it should be added. Personally, I think "strongly encourages" is too week. I think we should probably say, "Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting translations that comply with common language usage of Father and Son when refering to God." I am OK with changing the wording as you suggested. I don't think the other way sounds unclear, but will defer to you and Drew on that.
SusanQuigley commented 2021-01-05 18:55:37 +00:00
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I think Chris's concern with "supports" is that people might understand that to mean that WA supports the translation projects financially.

I think Chris's concern with "supports" is that people might understand that to mean that WA supports the translation projects financially.
TabithaJoy commented 2021-01-05 19:25:40 +00:00
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I agree with Chris, and we only do that for projects committed to correct DFT usage. That is what I am suggesting we convey. We might want to add the word "only" before "serving and supporting..."?

I agree with Chris, and we only do that for projects committed to correct DFT usage. That is what I am suggesting we convey. We might want to add the word "only" before "serving and supporting..."?
SusanQuigley commented 2021-01-05 19:27:32 +00:00
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Great. Sounds good to me.

Great. Sounds good to me.
TabithaJoy commented 2021-01-05 19:31:27 +00:00
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Thanks.

Thanks.
SusanQuigley commented 2021-01-05 20:15:35 +00:00
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Thanks, Tabitha. I made the changes.

@drewcurley, What do you think of these wordings about "Father" and "Son."?

In COBT:
https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tm/src/branch/susanquigley-issue-14/intro/statement-of-faith/01.md

Divine Familial Terms
The divine familial terms are the words "Father" and "Son" when they refer to God the Father and God the Son. God is divine, and these terms show their family relationship to each other. Whenever the words "Father" and "Son" are used in the Bible to refer to the relationship between God the Father and God the Son (or between God the Father and Jesus Christ), they should be translated with the literal, ordinary words that people use to show the relationship between a man and his own son. (See: Translating Son and Father and Son of God and God the Father.)

In the Just in Time Learning page on Translating Son and Father
https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tm/src/branch/susanquigley-issue-14/jit/guidelines-sonofgodprinciples/01.md

Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting translations that comply with common language usage of "Father" and "Son" when referring to God. (see: Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms)

Thanks, Tabitha. I made the changes. @drewcurley, What do you think of these wordings about "Father" and "Son."? **In COBT:** https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tm/src/branch/susanquigley-issue-14/intro/statement-of-faith/01.md **Divine Familial Terms** The divine familial terms are the words "Father" and "Son" when they refer to God the Father and God the Son. God is divine, and these terms show their family relationship to each other. Whenever the words "Father" and "Son" are used in the Bible to refer to the relationship between God the Father and God the Son (or between God the Father and Jesus Christ), they should be translated with the literal, ordinary words that people use to show the relationship between a man and his own son. (See: [Translating Son and Father](../jit/guidelines-sonofgodprinciples/01.md) and [Son of God and God the Father](../jit/guidelines-sonofgod/01.md).) **In the Just in Time Learning page on Translating Son and Father** https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tm/src/branch/susanquigley-issue-14/jit/guidelines-sonofgodprinciples/01.md Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting translations that comply with common language usage of "Father" and "Son" when referring to God. (see: [Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms](../../intro/statement-of-faith/01.md))
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drewc commented 2021-01-06 18:59:57 +00:00
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I am good with it. The only thing I may have added is something about not using a qualifiers.

they should be translated with the literal, ordinary words that people use to show the relationship between a man and his own son without qualification.

Up to you if this is too confusing though. It is common in MIT to say spiriutal son. In that case, son is the literal ordinary word, it is just quaified by the modifier spritual.

I am good with it. The only thing I may have added is something about not using a qualifiers. they should be translated with the literal, ordinary words that people use to show the relationship between a man and his own son without qualification. Up to you if this is too confusing though. It is common in MIT to say spiriutal son. In that case, son is the literal ordinary word, it is just quaified by the modifier spritual.
SusanQuigley commented 2021-01-07 15:22:41 +00:00
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In COBT:
https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tm/src/branch/susanquigley-issue-14/intro/statement-of-faith/01.md

@drewcurley, your use of the words "qualifier" and "qualification" may not be known to some of the translators. And even some of the RDDs might have trouble explaining it on the spot.

How about something like this in the COBT Training?

Divine Familial Terms
The divine familial terms are the words “Father” and “Son” when they refer to God the Father and God the Son. God is divine, and these terms show their family relationship to each other. Whenever the words “Father” and “Son” are used in the Bible to refer to the relationship between God the Father and God the Son (or between God the Father and Jesus Christ), they should be translated with the literal, ordinary words that people use to show the relationship between a man and his own son without qualification. That is, translators should not add words that imply that God is not really Jesus' Father and that Jesus is not really God's Son, such as "spiritual Father" and "spiritual Son." (See: Translating Son and Father and Son of God and God the Father.)

In the Just in Time Learning page on Translating Son and Father
https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tm/src/branch/susanquigley-issue-14/jit/guidelines-sonofgodprinciples/01.md

Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting translations that comply with common language usage of “Father” and “Son” when referring to God. (see: Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms)

I just realized that the statement above is not clear. People could think it means that if people in the language community commonly say "Guardian" and "Caliph" or "spiritual Father" and "spiritual Son" when referring to God, then the translators should also use those words.

How about one of these on the Just in Time Learning page?

Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting only translations that comply with the statement on Divine Familial Terms (see: Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms)

or

Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting only translations that use the ordinary words that people use to show the relationship between a man and his own son without qualification. That is, translators must not add words that imply that God is not really Jesus' Father and that Jesus is not really God's Son, such as "spiritual Father" and "spiritual Son." (see: Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms)

In COBT: https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tm/src/branch/susanquigley-issue-14/intro/statement-of-faith/01.md @drewcurley, your use of the words "qualifier" and "qualification" may not be known to some of the translators. And even some of the RDDs might have trouble explaining it on the spot. **How about something like this in the COBT Training?** **Divine Familial Terms** The divine familial terms are the words “Father” and “Son” when they refer to God the Father and God the Son. God is divine, and these terms show their family relationship to each other. Whenever the words “Father” and “Son” are used in the Bible to refer to the relationship between God the Father and God the Son (or between God the Father and Jesus Christ), they should be translated with the literal, ordinary words that people use to show the relationship between a man and his own son [[without qualification. That is, translators should not add words that imply that God is not really Jesus' Father and that Jesus is not really God's Son, such as "spiritual Father" and "spiritual Son."]] (See: [Translating Son and Father](../jit/guidelines-sonofgodprinciples/01.md) and [Son of God and God the Father](../jit/guidelines-sonofgod/01.md).) ------- In the Just in Time Learning page on Translating Son and Father https://content.bibletranslationtools.org/WycliffeAssociates/en_tm/src/branch/susanquigley-issue-14/jit/guidelines-sonofgodprinciples/01.md Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting translations that comply with common language usage of “Father” and “Son” when referring to God. (see: Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms) I just realized that the statement above is not clear. People could think it means that if people in the language community commonly say "Guardian" and "Caliph" or "spiritual Father" and "spiritual Son" when referring to God, then the translators should also use those words. **How about one of these on the Just in Time Learning page**? Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting only translations that [[comply with the statement on Divine Familial Terms]] (see: Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms) or Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting only translations that [[use the ordinary words that people use to show the relationship between a man and his own son without qualification. That is, translators must not add words that imply that God is not really Jesus' Father and that Jesus is not really God's Son, such as "spiritual Father" and "spiritual Son."]] (see: Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms)
drewc commented 2021-01-21 20:53:19 +00:00
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I like the addition to the DFT in COBT training. In Just in Time learning I would use the simple one:

Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting only translations that comply with the statement on Divine Familial Terms (see: Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms)

I like the addition to the DFT in COBT training. In Just in Time learning I would use the simple one: Wycliffe Associates is committed to serving and supporting only translations that comply with the statement on Divine Familial Terms (see: Statement of Faith and Divine Familial Terms)
SusanQuigley commented 2021-02-10 22:17:35 +00:00
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Done. Thank you, Tabitha and Drew!

Done. Thank you, Tabitha and Drew!
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