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Cross article. Issue from GL translator #32
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The "cross" article says this:
“Cross” can also be a metaphor. It is used to talk about Jesus dying to forgive people for sinning and causing them to be at peace with God.
The translator says this is "Unitarianist...not biblical.....peace with God is received when we receive this grace love gift of Jesus' propitiation / payment for our sins...."
I've wondered about his kind of wording before. Later in the article we say "He died to take the punishment for sinning from all the people who believe in him (see: Galatians 3:13; Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24)."
Do you think we should update the first statement to say include something about "only those who believe."
@SusanQuigley @drewcurley
The same translator also made this comment about the same article.
row 12...Jesus took the punishment for all people when he died. He did this because all people sinned and deserved to die for their sinning. ....No.....Jesus died on the cross for our sin becuase He was obedient ((Philipians 2:8)))But Jesus died instead of all people......no....He died as payment or propitiation for us...1John2:2..... He died to take the punishment for sinning from all the people who believe in him.......incorrect....Jesus died for all...John 3:16.....yet only those who receive Jesus as theiir Lord and Saviour actually recieve the gift of having their sin debt already paid by the sacrifical death of Jesus.....this authors method of describing these truths were puzzling to follow to me a beleiver and disciple of Jesus and studying God's word for 20 years....God's word itslef makes salvation clear....better to use it directly instead of paraphrasing it.....hope this helps...God bless... (see: Galatians 3:13; Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24).
How do we change it without making it limited atonement? This is the issue with adding "only those who believe." Perhaps,
Cross is a metaphor. It is used to talk about what Jesus did when he died.
For the second one:
Jesus died on the cross for our sin because He was obedient--> I don't see this as the only reason he died. I am not sure what he is getting at here.
He died as payment or propitiation for us.--> This is espousing limited atonement over unlimited atonement...but then he goes against this...I am very confused.
My suggestion is to change the last sentence of the first section.
Remove section: Jesus took the punishment for all people when he died. He did this because all people sinned and deserved to die for their sinning. But Jesus died instead of all people. He died to take the punishment for sinning from all the people who believe in him (see: Galatians 3:13; Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24).
Remove section: People who do not believe in Jesus think that Jesus dying on a cross to save people from being punished for their sin is foolish (see: 1 Corinthians 1:18, 23; 2:14; Hebrews 12:2). Paul taught that God uses the things that people think are foolish to do what he needs to do. God wanted to shame people who thought they were wise. Also, he wanted to use what no one would have thought possible to save people from being punished for sinning (see: 1 Corinthians 1:18-31). For the people who believe in Jesus, the cross is God powerfully saving people from being punished for sinning. It is also God defeating evil (see: 1 Corinthians 1:18; Ephesians 2:16; Colossians 2:15). Therefore, those who believe in Jesus are not to be prideful about what they have done. Instead, they should only boast about what God did for them through Jesus dying on a cross (see: Galatians 6:14).
More information about this topic (New reading)
The Romans killed Jesus on a cross. The Jewish leaders told the Romans that Jesus did things to disobey the law of Moses. Jesus did not actually do these things, but the Jewish leaders wanted the Romans to crucify him.
In addition to Jesus’ physical death, the word “cross” is also used to talk about all things Jesus’ death means. The law of Moses said that anyone hung on a tree is cursed (see: Deuteronomy 21:23). Jesus himself was not cursed, but humanity was cursed because people sinned. Being crucified on a cross was the most shameful way to die during New Testament times. It was shameful because the person was said to be a criminal and hung naked for all to see him.
I think all the rest is covered in atonement. We can remove a lot of the theologizing in this section.
I made some changes to the article. If everyone is ok with it, I will close the issue and update the GL material.
I don't think cross is a metaphor. Sometimes it is used as a metonym to talk about what Jesus did when he died on a cross for people.
It seems for the commentary and articles we lumped everything under "metaphor" to keep from getting too technical. We could reword as "Sometimes the word "cross" is used to talk about what Jesus did for people when he died on a cross."
That sounds good. I think it's better not to call it anything than to call it the wrong thing. When something is described as a "metaphor," I expect people to try to understand a comparison. But there is no comparison here.
I changed it.
Thanks for changing that. Perhaps it doesn't need the sentence before it: "The word “cross” in the Bible means a physical cross." Isn't that what people would expect of any object spoken of in the Bible?
More Information About This Topic
The Romans killed Jesus on a cross. The Jewish leaders told the Romans that Jesus did things to disobey the law of Moses. Jesus did not actually do these things, but the Jewish leaders wanted the Romans to crucify him.
My comment: The Romans didn't care about the Mosaic law. The Jewish leaders accused Jesus of subverting the nation and claiming to be king.
Luk 23:2 We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Messiah, a king.
Luk 23:5 He stirs up the people all over Judea by his teaching.
Luk 23:38 ... written notice... THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS
My suggestions
The Romans killed Jesus on a cross. The Jewish leaders wanted the Romans to crucify Jesus, so they lied about Jesus. They said that Jesus told people not to pay taxes to the Roman king, but that was not true. They also said that Jesus called himself a king. Jesus is king, but he did not try to take the place of the Roman king.
or simply
The Romans killed Jesus on a cross. The Jewish leaders wanted to kill him, but they were not allowed to. So they told the Roman rulers lies about Jesus so that the rulers would command their soldiers to crucify Jesus.
Sorry, I keep fixing that block above. Please refresh your screen if you're looking at it and things don't make sense.
I modified your simpler version
The Romans killed Jesus on a cross. The Jewish leaders wanted to kill him, but the Roman government did not allow Jews to kill people. So they told the Roman rulers lies about Jesus so that the rulers would command their soldiers to crucify Jesus.
Thank you, John!